My Astrophytum Ornatum is ill and damaged. What should I do?

Trouble shoot problems you are having with your cactus.
Post Reply
Arcturus
Posts: 9
Joined: Fri Mar 24, 2017 8:51 pm

My Astrophytum Ornatum is ill and damaged. What should I do?

Post by Arcturus »

Here are some pictures.
IMG_20170325_142802.jpg
IMG_20170325_142802.jpg (75.49 KiB) Viewed 3151 times
IMG_20170325_142848.jpg
IMG_20170325_142848.jpg (80.56 KiB) Viewed 3151 times
IMG_20170325_143328.jpg
IMG_20170325_143328.jpg (85.54 KiB) Viewed 3151 times
IMG_20170325_142924.jpg
IMG_20170325_142924.jpg (68.79 KiB) Viewed 3151 times
IMG_20170325_143002.jpg
IMG_20170325_143002.jpg (74.02 KiB) Viewed 3151 times
IMG_20170325_143245.jpg
IMG_20170325_143245.jpg (71.17 KiB) Viewed 3151 times
IMG_20170325_143308.jpg
IMG_20170325_143308.jpg (69.75 KiB) Viewed 3151 times
IMG_20170325_143046.jpg
IMG_20170325_143046.jpg (112.89 KiB) Viewed 3151 times
IMG_20170325_143137.jpg
IMG_20170325_143137.jpg (104.29 KiB) Viewed 3151 times
This cactus has a troubled history. I kept it in a very tiny pot for 10-15 years (3 weeks ago I gave it the pot that you see in the pictures). I kept it in many different places through these years. I guess I never gave it proper sunlight. My mom accidentally knocked it off its shelf not once but twice and it fell on the floor. Both times it fell on its head and lost its small stem (luckily it grew a third which you see in the picture). Could this be the reason why its top looks so messy? I wasn't around at the time and mom didn't think of planting the small stems but threw them away.

To prevent further accidents, I put it on a higher shelf in my room but I tended to forget about it and not water it in time. Add to this the dusty environment of my room where it spent the more recent years (often I am late with the dusting of my room). Could this be why it's missing so many spines? At some point I also found it with small spider webs around it.

In addition to the new bigger pot, three weeks ago I also gave it nutrient rich soil which I bought from a specialized store. According to the company description, the soil and its nutrients are specifically intended for cacti and succulents (I replanted my Cereus Repandus Monstrosus at the same time using the same soil and it grew quite visibly since).

So what should I do? Should I separate the small stem from the old plant and start a new cactus or should I wait and see how it does in the new pot, with the new soil and with the special care it will get from now on?
User avatar
hegar
Posts: 4596
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2006 4:04 am
Location: El Paso, Texas

Re: My Astrophytum Ornatum is ill and damaged. What should I do?

Post by hegar »

Well, your cactus was obviously grown without sufficient light. That is the reason for the etiolated tip. Then some damage occurred to the apex and now your plant is responding by producing offsets. So your Astrophytum ornatum will remain disfigured, because with enough light now the tip will become wider than the narrow part produced when the plant did not have adequate light. What I would do is the following:
I would use that plant for the production of new plants, such as the one formed at the top. Take the largest plantlet off by cutting it with a sterile knife at a point where you do produce the least open wound area. Then you can go ahead and dust the cut end with sulfur or you could apply a rooting hormone that also contains a fungicide. Let the plant rest on its side for several weeks, until it has formed a tough skin at the location of the cut.
After that you can place the new plant in a good cactus growing medium. Do not water it right away though. It should form roots within a month and you then can water it. If the plant part you cut off is too small, your chances of success are reduced, because there may be too much water loss.
The largest of the newly formed outgrowths does look big enough now. Sometimes these sprouting cactus babies do not even need to be cut. They do originate at an areole, which is the same small area that also produces flowers and fruits. So they do not have a large surface area by which they ate held onto by the mother plant. You could try to see, if by just grabbing and twisting the small plant you can remove it. The smaller the damage, be it cut or other injury, the better off you are keeping this plant alive and growing well for you.
One other thing I noticed. Your soil (growing medium) is very dark. You also stated, that you transplanted your cactus into a soil formulated for cacti and succulents. You need to know one thing though. While for example a Schlumbergera or Epiphyllum cactus will do OK in potting soil, you most likely will cause the death of a desert cactus like an Astrophytum, when you place it into the same soil. All three of the names are cactus genera. However the last name (Astrophytum spp.) is a genus that falls into the "desert cactus" category. The first two mentioned are "jungle cacti".
Desert cacti require a growing medium that is not rich in humus and nutrients. The humic acid formed by the break down of humus (compost) will actually cause that kind of cactus to go into root rot. Desert cacti require a mineral growing medium. If you look at the top of this page, there is a tab called "Growing Help" or something similar, which gives you good cactus mixes for desert cacti. I do use coarse sand and gravel that I obtain from our local arroyos (dry creek beds). Because this material does have little water holding capacity, which is good for the prevention of root rot, I do give my plants a weekly watering in the hot desert climate I live in. Also, I do fertilize them a few times during the growing season. However, I apply the Miracle Grow formula with a small N number and bigger P and K values only at 1/2 or 1/3 strength of that listed on the box.
Well, I realize, that I wrote a whole sermon. However, I hope, that you can use some of what I have said.
You most likely will hear from a few other cactus growers, who have more experience growing cacti indoors in pots. I am certain though, that combined, we will be able to help you with your cactus problem.
One more thing: I do notice a few spots on your plant. I do not like the reddish brown larger one at the base of your cactus. Check it, to make sure, that it is not getting soft or enlarging. Then it would indicate, that your plant is rotting and it would most likely fall over then and quickly die.

Harald
User avatar
greenknight
Posts: 4818
Joined: Tue Apr 30, 2013 4:18 am
Location: SW Washington State zone 8b

Re: My Astrophytum Ornatum is ill and damaged. What should I do?

Post by greenknight »

I mostly agree with Harald. However, the problem with organic matter is simply that it holds more water, the soil stays wet too long. This makes it hard to avoid over-watering the cactus. Mix that soil you've got with more grit and it would be ok.

If that pup will break off easily that's actually better than cutting, it causes less cell damage.

Check to see if that brown patch at the base of the plant is soft, if it's turning mushy that means it's rotting. You could save it by slicing it off well above the discoloration and growing it as a cutting. Check the cut surface, rot can spread up the center if the cactus, if you see any discoloration you need to cut more. See - http://www.cactusinfo.net/propagation.htm
Spence :mrgreen:
Arcturus
Posts: 9
Joined: Fri Mar 24, 2017 8:51 pm

Re: My Astrophytum Ornatum is ill and damaged. What should I do?

Post by Arcturus »

hegar wrote:Well, your cactus was obviously grown without sufficient light. That is the reason for the etiolated tip. Then some damage occurred to the apex and now your plant is responding by producing offsets. So your Astrophytum ornatum will remain disfigured, because with enough light now the tip will become wider than the narrow part produced when the plant did not have adequate light. What I would do is the following:
I would use that plant for the production of new plants, such as the one formed at the top. Take the largest plantlet off by cutting it with a sterile knife at a point where you do produce the least open wound area. Then you can go ahead and dust the cut end with sulfur or you could apply a rooting hormone that also contains a fungicide. Let the plant rest on its side for several weeks, until it has formed a tough skin at the location of the cut.
After that you can place the new plant in a good cactus growing medium. Do not water it right away though. It should form roots within a month and you then can water it. If the plant part you cut off is too small, your chances of success are reduced, because there may be too much water loss.
The largest of the newly formed outgrowths does look big enough now. Sometimes these sprouting cactus babies do not even need to be cut. They do originate at an areole, which is the same small area that also produces flowers and fruits. So they do not have a large surface area by which they ate held onto by the mother plant. You could try to see, if by just grabbing and twisting the small plant you can remove it. The smaller the damage, be it cut or other injury, the better off you are keeping this plant alive and growing well for you.
One other thing I noticed. Your soil (growing medium) is very dark. You also stated, that you transplanted your cactus into a soil formulated for cacti and succulents. You need to know one thing though. While for example a Schlumbergera or Epiphyllum cactus will do OK in potting soil, you most likely will cause the death of a desert cactus like an Astrophytum, when you place it into the same soil. All three of the names are cactus genera. However the last name (Astrophytum spp.) is a genus that falls into the "desert cactus" category. The first two mentioned are "jungle cacti".
Desert cacti require a growing medium that is not rich in humus and nutrients. The humic acid formed by the break down of humus (compost) will actually cause that kind of cactus to go into root rot. Desert cacti require a mineral growing medium. If you look at the top of this page, there is a tab called "Growing Help" or something similar, which gives you good cactus mixes for desert cacti. I do use coarse sand and gravel that I obtain from our local arroyos (dry creek beds). Because this material does have little water holding capacity, which is good for the prevention of root rot, I do give my plants a weekly watering in the hot desert climate I live in. Also, I do fertilize them a few times during the growing season. However, I apply the Miracle Grow formula with a small N number and bigger P and K values only at 1/2 or 1/3 strength of that listed on the box.
Well, I realize, that I wrote a whole sermon. However, I hope, that you can use some of what I have said.
You most likely will hear from a few other cactus growers, who have more experience growing cacti indoors in pots. I am certain though, that combined, we will be able to help you with your cactus problem.
One more thing: I do notice a few spots on your plant. I do not like the reddish brown larger one at the base of your cactus. Check it, to make sure, that it is not getting soft or enlarging. Then it would indicate, that your plant is rotting and it would most likely fall over then and quickly die.

Harald
Thank you very much Harald. This is really helpful.

I was doubtful of the soil when I bought it. But I just wanted to do something about my cacti (I also replanted a Cereus Repandus Monstrosus using the same soil). I just wanted to give the two cacti something better than what they had. Yes... I noticed that most cacti of the desert looking type I saw on the internet have sand and stones in their pot. I will do the same in future repottings. My healthiest, largest, most successful cactus is (I believe) an Acharagma which I gave a significant amount of sand and a very large pot a few years ago. It quickly expanded into a populous bush - bright green and happy looking.

Speaking of soil, the Cereus Repandus Monstrosus (people on this forum often call it Peruvianus Monstrosus) seems to be enjoying this soil. In just three weeks the branches have thickened and their apexes look like wanting to split into new branches. Overall, it looks like the whole plant is growing and expanding horizontally rather than vertically - a sign of health from what I understand about cacti so far. So I guess that if this soil helps the Cereus like this, it won't kill the Astrophytum (just my inexperienced supposition).

The reddish brown area on the Astrophytum is present on all sides at the bottom, it's not just a spot, but it feels very hard to the touch; just as hard as the green areas. I'm not sure if it's enlarging. I'll have to wait and see.

I must also mention that I live in Eastern Europe, Romania - not the same as your Texas, the homeland of Astrophytum Ornatum. I live in the Western Plain. The region is on the same latitude as Minnesota. Summers here tend to be very hot and dry, winters very cold and moist. But if I were an American living in Texas, wouldn't it be best to just go into the wild and take soil from its natural habitat, from around its most successful looking fellows?
Arcturus
Posts: 9
Joined: Fri Mar 24, 2017 8:51 pm

Re: My Astrophytum Ornatum is ill and damaged. What should I do?

Post by Arcturus »

greenknight wrote:I mostly agree with Harald. However, the problem with organic matter is simply that it holds more water, the soil stays wet too long. This makes it hard to avoid over-watering the cactus. Mix that soil you've got with more grit and it would be ok.
My room is very exposed to the sun during the summer, which makes it very hot and dry. During the winter, my heater is always hot. I guess these factors compensate somewhat for this inadequate, moist trapping soil that I used so far because I discovered that under these conditions, the soil gets dry rather fast.
greenknight wrote:If that pup will break off easily that's actually better than cutting, it causes less cell damage.
The pup has been increasing in size since I replanted its parent into this soil, three weeks ago. Should I wait for it to get even bigger to maximize its chances?
Thanks, I was going to look/ ask for this kind of info.
User avatar
cactushobbyman
Posts: 1437
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2011 8:01 pm
Location: Sanger, California

Re: My Astrophytum Ornatum is ill and damaged. What should I do?

Post by cactushobbyman »

I find rooting Astrophytums a little tricky. The bigger the pup the better your chances will be. For me, I put the pup/cutting in a corner of the greenhouse where it get lots of light and it is hard to water. This stops me from over watering. The mother plant I would leave. Correct the soil and let it produce offsets/pups. If the base is rotted, cut out the bad, let it dry over, give it lot of light and very little water and don't worry about it for a year. I have two I've done this to and this spring I'll repot them. The key for me is the over watering, Every one does their rooting differently because of the condition they are growing the offsets/pups/cuttings in. The best luck I have had with Astrophytums is bigger pups/cuttings.
User avatar
greenknight
Posts: 4818
Joined: Tue Apr 30, 2013 4:18 am
Location: SW Washington State zone 8b

Re: My Astrophytum Ornatum is ill and damaged. What should I do?

Post by greenknight »

Agreed, letting the pup grow bigger will improve the chances of success. If the base of the plant is firm it's probably fine, no reason to rush about taking a cutting.

When you take a cutting at a joint, like when you take the pup off this plant, there's no need to do any further cutting - it's only when there's a large cut surface that you need to cut off the corners at an angle as they do in the link I posted. The reason for doing this is that the skin of the cactus won't shrink as much as the inside part when it dries, the bottom of the cutting will form a cup if you leave it flat, which makes it hard to get good soil contact. This problem doesn't occur when the cutting is taken at a joint, and the tissue if the joint is adapted for growing roots so you should not remove it. This type of cutting has a higher success rate than when you cut into the middle of a stem.

I'm not surprised the Cereus likes that soil - they are widely adapted, not fussy about their soil. Astrophytums are true desert cacti, won't tolerate as much moisture as the Cereus repandus (or whatever name you prefer).

A plant in a pot is in a very different situation than one growing in the ground, the natural soil would not be good for potting. The issue is explained here - http://gardening.stackexchange.com/ques ... ater-table . The way to get around it is to use coarser, more free-draining soil.
Spence :mrgreen:
User avatar
hegar
Posts: 4596
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2006 4:04 am
Location: El Paso, Texas

Re: My Astrophytum Ornatum is ill and damaged. What should I do?

Post by hegar »

You are lucky, that some knowledgeable people are on this forum. I do not have much experience with South American cactus species, but some of those will do OK with a richer growing medium and more water. Greenknight is correct with his statement, that one of the most important things with desert cacti is a rapidly draining growing medium. That is why the coarse sandy particles and pebbles from the creek beds near our mountains are a great growing medium.
I do not propagate cacti and do not even try to grow them under controlled conditions. Also, I only have one cactus, which is not cold hardy here, in a flower pot. The rest are fighting for survival outside. So I am not the best person to ask about growing cacti indoors.
By the way, I do have a special relationship to Romania. My grandfather from my mother's side spoke fluent Romanian and could also write in that language. Also, in one of the latest issues of the Romanian on-line magazine called "Xerophilia" there is an article that I wrote about the hybrid Echinocereus cacti from Orogrande, New Mexico. That place is only a 1 1/2 to two hour drive by car away from my home.
Well, I hope, that you are going to do well with that Astrophytum. I have to admit, that I have killed a few of that genus. For some strange reason - perhaps the location - all my Astrophytum asterias (two or three hybrids and one A. asterias cv. kabuto) are all doing fine! I do like, that they have a relatively large blossom and flower repeatedly.

Harald
User avatar
greenknight
Posts: 4818
Joined: Tue Apr 30, 2013 4:18 am
Location: SW Washington State zone 8b

Re: My Astrophytum Ornatum is ill and damaged. What should I do?

Post by greenknight »

Yes, the Cereus is native to South America and some of the Caribbean islands - not really a desert plant, though very drought-tolerant. Astrophytum ornatum comes from Mexico's Central Plateau, a quite arid region. A. asterias is native to parts of Mexico and Texas, not surprising they do well in El Paso! (It's like growing Trilliums where I live - just leave them alone, they're happy).
Spence :mrgreen:
Arcturus
Posts: 9
Joined: Fri Mar 24, 2017 8:51 pm

Re: My Astrophytum Ornatum is ill and damaged. What should I do?

Post by Arcturus »

greenknight wrote:This problem doesn't occur when the cutting is taken at a joint, and the tissue if the joint is adapted for growing roots so you should not remove it. This type of cutting has a higher success rate than when you cut into the middle of a stem.
I never thought that it was possible to cut a stem in the middle and hope to have it surviving. I'm new to plants and especially new to plant surgery. I'd imagine that growing a cactus from half a stem would mean future deformation, disease, weakness etc. By the way, is there a significant difference between cacti grown from pups and cacti grown from seeds??
greenknight wrote:I'm not surprised the Cereus likes that soil - they are widely adapted, not fussy about their soil. Astrophytums are true desert cacti, won't tolerate as much moisture as the Cereus repandus (or whatever name you prefer).
From my research so far, it looks like Astrophytum doesn't like too much light either. Is that right?
greenknight wrote:A plant in a pot is in a very different situation than one growing in the ground, the natural soil would not be good for potting. The issue is explained here - http://gardening.stackexchange.com/ques ... ater-table . The way to get around it is to use coarser, more free-draining soil.
I see. Makes a lot of sense.
Arcturus
Posts: 9
Joined: Fri Mar 24, 2017 8:51 pm

Re: My Astrophytum Ornatum is ill and damaged. What should I do?

Post by Arcturus »

hegar wrote:I do not propagate cacti and do not even try to grow them under controlled conditions. Also, I only have one cactus, which is not cold hardy here, in a flower pot. The rest are fighting for survival outside. So I am not the best person to ask about growing cacti indoors.
What's it like in Texas during winter? Does it go often below freezing temperature?
hegar wrote:By the way, I do have a special relationship to Romania. My grandfather from my mother's side spoke fluent Romanian and could also write in that language. Also, in one of the latest issues of the Romanian on-line magazine called "Xerophilia" there is an article that I wrote about the hybrid Echinocereus cacti from Orogrande, New Mexico. That place is only a 1 1/2 to two hour drive by car away from my home.
Incredible magazine. Thanks. This place is very rich in info about Cacti. What is the title of your article and what issue?

Are there many people with Romanian ancestry in New Mexico?
hegar wrote:Well, I hope, that you are going to do well with that Astrophytum. I have to admit, that I have killed a few of that genus.
You killed a few of them? Well, that makes me feel less guilty about what I did to mine. How exactly did you kill them? I ask because I want to learn from your mistakes.
User avatar
greenknight
Posts: 4818
Joined: Tue Apr 30, 2013 4:18 am
Location: SW Washington State zone 8b

Re: My Astrophytum Ornatum is ill and damaged. What should I do?

Post by greenknight »

Arcturus wrote: I never thought that it was possible to cut a stem in the middle and hope to have it surviving. I'm new to plants and especially new to plant surgery. I'd imagine that growing a cactus from half a stem would mean future deformation, disease, weakness etc. By the way, is there a significant difference between cacti grown from pups and cacti grown from seeds??
There's no problem once the cut heals, the plant forms a callus layer over the wound which is adapted to resist infection - and to grow roots, though roots will also sprout from the side of the stem. Many cacti root easily, a few less so. When columnar cacti are propagated this way, the base will be thicker than normal, that's about the only difference. With globular species, the base shrinks as they grow, which is how they maintain the globular shape - after a few years you can't tell it was a cutting without un-potting it.

As for those grown from pups, there's no significant difference. Some cacti employ this as a major reproduction method, such as Cylindropuntia fulgida (Jumping Cholla) and Opuntia fragilis. These have segments that detach very easily, and barbed spines, so they "grab on" to passing creatures and get carried to new locations.
Arcturus wrote: From my research so far, it looks like Astrophytum doesn't like too much light either. Is that right?
They can take full sun or partial shade.
Spence :mrgreen:
User avatar
hegar
Posts: 4596
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2006 4:04 am
Location: El Paso, Texas

Re: My Astrophytum Ornatum is ill and damaged. What should I do?

Post by hegar »

I also will try to answer your questions:
as greenknight already correctly stated, there is no difference between the mother plant and the "pups" if produces. The same is true of course also for new plants produced by cuttings, tissue culture, etc.
Sexual reproduction through seeds will yield genetic diversity. In case of my harvested seed I cannot even state with 100% certainty, that some of it may not even produce a "pure strain" seedling, because the plants are bee pollinated and sometimes pollen from a different species could have found its way onto the stigma, producing a hybrid.
My short article in Xerophilia deals with just that kind of scenario. It is found in the October 2016 issue Vol 18, starting on page 41. The title of the article is: "Cacti Hybrids of Orogrande".
You asked about the amount of sunlight. Our radiation from the sun is extraordinary in its intensity. I live about 4,000 feet (1200 m) above sea level and the UV radiation is rather high. I have killed a few cacti by just planting them in full sun. They "burned to a crisp" in a few hours! We do have little precipitation - average about 8 inches (200 mm) per year - with most of that coming down during the summer months. We also do have below freezing temperatures almost daily during December, January, and February.
In February 2011 it stayed below freezing for 72 hours and even some of our native cacti did not survive. However, usually the frost is limited to the nighttime hours and during the day you can oftentimes go outside wearing a short sleeve shirt!
Well, I cannot tell you, if there are many or just a few people in New Mexico or Texas that have Romanian ancestry. My family lived near the Black Sea, but they originated in southern Germany.
Also, I am not quite sure, how I was able to kill almost all of my Astrophytum sp. plants. The only ones that are doing well for me are the Astrophytum asterias, a total of four plants. I also do have one living Astrophytum capricorne plant left out of three.
This last weekend I transplanted my Astrophytum myriostigma, which bloomed beautifully last year. I noticed, that it looked smaller than when the winter came last year. Then I also saw, that the ribs had caved in a bit. When I removed the plant, there were no roots present! It was also not as heavy as it should be. I applied some rooting hormone and placed it in a location that may be better.
However, it might well be, that it is already a "goner". As you can see, I do not know myself, why some of these cacti stay alive, while others succumb to whatever their environment is. I do not water my plants during the winter months, but we occasionally do have some snowfall. It has happened with other cacti too, that they looked perfectly healthy before the winter arrived and even when it got warmer and then went downhill quickly and died. During the very cold nights, when the temperature falls to around 20 degrees F (- 6 degrees C) I do cover my plants with a plastic weed barrier. That material allows moisture to escape or enter and gas exchange to take place, because it has tiny holes in it. That way I was able to even keep my big clump of Echinopsis eyeriesii alive, when we experienced the 3 day freeze. I found out, that - when growing plants in the ground outdoors - you have to do some experimenting. The result of not getting everything just right could be the death of your plant. What is really bothersome though, is a situation, where you have successfully grown a plant for a good number of years and then the plant dies. This scenario has happened to me several times and I still do not know what went wrong.

Harald
Post Reply