southern Utah

Share info and Pictures about gardens, parks, nurseries, and other locations with cacti.
peterb
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southern Utah

Post by peterb »

Coincidentally, just before another forum member posted some great pics of cacti of the St. George Utah area, my girlfriend suggested we visit Zion National Park for Thanksgiving. I was surprised by the paucity of records for cacti in this general area, although there are some interesting outlying records to the southwest in the Hurricane area (Pedio simpsonii, fickeisenii) and some obscure old records that have never been duplicated from Clover. I was particularly interested to find Echinomastus johnsonii in Utah. It turns out there is a population of these plants near the Utah/Arizona border, north of Beaver Dam. This population is somewhat reminiscent of the Meadview AZ plants and the Death Valley plants.

The scenery in Zion was incredible. What a place! It was interesting seeing so many Opuntia aurea, also. This is not a plant with which I was that familiar before. It looked to me that all the Echinocereus I saw were mojavensis.

Some cactus pics from the trip below.

peterb
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050.JPG
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aurea
aurea
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a few of these very spiny plants that look like aurea polyacantha hybrids to me
a few of these very spiny plants that look like aurea polyacantha hybrids to me
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I guess this is engelmannii?
I guess this is engelmannii?
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Mam tetrancistra in Hurricane
Mam tetrancistra in Hurricane
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E. johnsonii just barely in Utah
E. johnsonii just barely in Utah
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engelmannii chrysocentrus, the blonde version
engelmannii chrysocentrus, the blonde version
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E. johnsonii
E. johnsonii
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Escobaria chlorantha in Utah
Escobaria chlorantha in Utah
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Tony
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Re: southern Utah

Post by Tony »

Nice variety! Love the blonde engelmannii.
I wonder if MG has seed for that?
Forget the dog...Beware of the plants!!!

Tony
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CoronaCactus
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Re: southern Utah

Post by CoronaCactus »

Those johnsonii could also pass for blondes ;)

Great pics, PB!
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Peterthecactusguy
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Re: southern Utah

Post by Peterthecactusguy »

nice photos. I need to visit S. Utah. I was going to go up before with my Ex's Dad, but the trip fell through somehow. He used to work at a testing place on Hurricane Mesa.
Here's to you, all you insidious creatures of green..er I mean cacti.
iann
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Re: southern Utah

Post by iann »

I bet those are some hardy Mammillarias :)
--ian
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Peterthecactusguy
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Re: southern Utah

Post by Peterthecactusguy »

BTW I have some hybid O. aurea that are of course O. aurea X O. basilaris (at least I think that is what it was mixed with) that have magenta flowers. * I was informed that this is not correct. My apologies. Likely it's O. aurea X O. pinkavae or O. polycantha instead.
Last edited by Peterthecactusguy on Wed Nov 28, 2012 10:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Here's to you, all you insidious creatures of green..er I mean cacti.
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tumamoc
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Re: southern Utah

Post by tumamoc »

Nice.
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gemhunter178
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Re: southern Utah

Post by gemhunter178 »

Nice habitat pictures! =D>
A cactus and succulent collector who especially likes Ariocarpus. …Though I have a bit of everything! Want some pictures? See my flickr! I also do art and such.
A. Dean Stock
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Location: 40 south 7440 east Kanab, Utah (Johnson Canyon)

Re: southern Utah

Post by A. Dean Stock »

Peter, as you saw, E. johnsonii is quite common all across the Beaver Dam Slope with some really colorful forms of it. In places they are so abundant it is hard to walk between them. The Opuntia of Zion are almost entirely hybrids and few non-introgressed plants occur there. In the lower reaches near the entry there are some good O chlorotica and Some of the O. aurea hybrids on the upper east side are more typical of O. aurea but many have pink flowers. Hard to work in the park so much of the hybriization is not documented with chromosome counts. Many counts are available howerver from east and south of the park that documents the hybrid nature of the populations. A number of plants in Zion appear to be completely O. engelmannii and these occur with O. phaeacantha. It is likely that all are introgressed to some extent. The O. engelmannii genes are present all along the Virgin River drainage and up the Santa Clara Creek drainage for some distance. The flowers of many of these plants are red to orange colors and the fruit large and very sweet making them perfect for eating or making cactus jelly.
Many of the Opuntia plants in the upper reaches of Zion are O. macrorhiza hybrids but no true O. macrorhiza have yet been documented in the park. Zion would be a very interesting place to study cactus genetics and hybriidization but it is almost impossible to work in the park so little good work has been accomplished.
Strangely, most of the plants that appear to be E. mohavensis in the Zion area are actually E. coccineus (tetraploids). When you see them in flower it is obvious.
Dean
Albert Dean Stock,Ph.D.
peterb
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Re: southern Utah

Post by peterb »

Dean, thanks for the clarifications. Why is it almost impossible to work in the park? Federal regs? Interesting to hear that the Echinocereus are tetraploids. What a wacky bunch those coccineus-types are.

peterb
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A. Dean Stock
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Re: southern Utah

Post by A. Dean Stock »

The main difficulty is probably the Fed regulations but I suspect that a lot of it is simply "Park Mentality". For instance, if you are studying Opuntia hybrids in Zion, they usually won't let you sample a mature seed pod to look at the seeds. Forget the fact that they all fall off and the rodents, deer, birds, etc. get them. Even if you offered to return the seeds to the environment you would still have a difficult time getting permission. I'm sure that some of this attitude is justified because, with the millions of visitors they have going through the park, they must enforce the "don't touch" rules or there wouldn't be anything left. Collecting is a nightmare of red tape and endless forms and proposals to submit. Much easier to just work the BLM and private land plants close to the park boundary. Certain individuals seem to be able to get permits to work in the park but it is difficult at best.
Dean
Albert Dean Stock,Ph.D.
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Peterthecactusguy
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Re: southern Utah

Post by Peterthecactusguy »

Dean,
that is one of the problems tho, here in AZ. It seems our government decides that native plants on BLM lands don't belong to the people but instead belong to them, so they can destroy plants to allow companies profit, IE all the saguaros that were destroyed on the pipeline that went through my town... If it hadn't been for a few people that noticed, they would have wiped them out everywhere. I however was glad to be a part of the rescue efforts of the saguaros. Most are surviving although I am losing another one.. (the tallest, it's turning black)
Here's to you, all you insidious creatures of green..er I mean cacti.
peterb
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Re: southern Utah

Post by peterb »

I think the Feds do a pretty good job of protecting land and plants, generally speaking, especially considering the alternative and considering the vast acreage for which they are responsible. I was amazed by the swarm of people at Zion over Thanksgiving. However, it does seem there is too much red tape for legitimate researchers to collect plants or parts of plants and it can also be true that lease rates are way too low, compared to the damage done by oil drilling, mining, grazing, logging, etc. Anyway, I'm in favor of it being harder rather than easier to collect. It's just that researchers on staff somewhere should have some kind of expedited process or other.

peterb
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Peterthecactusguy
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Re: southern Utah

Post by Peterthecactusguy »

PeterB, I agree there. I disagree with the plants that are destroyed that we get nothing from, like those destroyed by industry. I would rather lose none. For legit research then I am ok with it, sorry for the rant, I just get upset about the destruction of plants in habitat, and MOST of it is not done by research.. as I am sure you are aware.
Here's to you, all you insidious creatures of green..er I mean cacti.
A. Dean Stock
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Re: southern Utah

Post by A. Dean Stock »

Some cacti are so threathened that every effort should be made to protect them whether in Parks or not. I would never take any of the threatened Pediocactus or Sclerocactus for specimens but Opuntia are different. I simply remove a single pad from a healthy plant for research. The plant remains intact and is not affected by loss of a single pad. Of course, if lots of people do that the Opuntia would also be threatened. In Parks there is a one rule fits everything approach that hampers any kind of research but I agree that I'd rather have it that way than no protection. I just don't even attempt to work in National Parks or National Rec Areas.
When you are doing research and have to obtain permits, it doesn't take much exposure to the system to learn that BLM is the "easiest" to deal with next comes the Forest Service which can vary greatly from one forest to another and finally the Nat. Park system which is almost impossible to deal with. Depending on the state, state park lands can be easy to impossible to deal with. Arizona is probably one of the most difficult states to work in because the State has claimed ownership of cacti whether on private property or not. Arizona also has transport laws that make it even more difficult for researchers. You can have all valid permits and still get in trouble because you lack a State of Arizona transportation permit.
PeterB. I agree that it is best to come down on the side of harder vs easier to collect plants but the problem with Parks like Zion is that they often do have staff personell that can collect cacti but I've never found a park anywhere in the system that had a botanist on hand that could correctly ID Opuntia cacti.
Dean
Albert Dean Stock,Ph.D.
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