Eggshell and sand in soil

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yukomkom
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Eggshell and sand in soil

Post by yukomkom »

Hi guys, I've been wondering around different posts on this site :-k , searching for some soil making tips. Some time ago I've found here some post about adding eggshell powder to the mix, it was said that it kind of making spines bigger or better, can't recall exactly. :?

In this well described instruction Daiv didn't mention anything about eggshell https://cactiguide.com/article/?article=article8.php

Than in this topic - viewtopic.php?f=24&t=33116&p=292019&hil ... ll#p292019 I found tip from Steve:
Add some mineral for drainage to the soil you're using. Horticultural pumice is best, although you may not be able to find it where you live. Other options are fine gravel, scoria, and chicken grit (but make sure it's not eggshell or oystershell -- calcium in a mix is not good for cacti). Whatever you do, do not use sand of any kind!
Could you please provide a bit more info why eggshell (calcium) in soil is bad?

And about sand I regularly prepare soil with 20-25% of it, no issues so far, but still I'm kind of new to cacti. :?

Your advice is much appreciated. Thanks in advance!
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teo
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Re: Eggshell and sand in soil

Post by teo »

Coarse sand (particle size > 2 mm) is OK. If you water with tap water you will probably get (more than) enough calcium anyways (depening on the water)
DaveW
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Re: Eggshell and sand in soil

Post by DaveW »

No problem with eggshell for species that like alkaline potting mixes, but maybe would be with those that like the soil slightly on the acid side of neutral. However unless ground up finely I would think eggshell would break down too slowly to make a great deal of difference. Oysters shell in chicken grit may break down faster and so release its alkalinity quicker.

Really the only way you can be sure what PH cacti prefer in in habitat is a PH test around their roots and that may vary according when they have just been rained on with acid rain. The fact they grow on limestone does not mean to say their roots may not be in a humus layer above it which is slightly acidic. Far too few real long term scientific tests have been done on cacti living on limestone to see what conditions they prefer, meaning in cultivation you need a meaningful number of plants to do a test and a long enough time to be relevant.

One set of cacti in a slightly alkaline mix, another in a slightly acidic one and a third control sample in a soil of neutral PH. The problem is few of us have enough of the plants that grow on limestone to do such tests because often these are slower growing from seed and the rarer cacti . Also to be meaningful with our naturally slow growing plants the test may need to continue for several years.

One botanist even claimed cacti growing on limestone only grew when acid rain fell and the plants stopped growing when the alkaline bedrock turned the water alkaline. Certainly there have been trials of them growing well in acid mediums through acidifying the water but maybe that only means either the plants prefer an acid PH or even do not mind a range of PH's. Certainly most S. American cacti seem to prefer a soil slightly on the acid side, whilst most N. American cacti seem to tolerate one on the slightly alkaline side, but that does not mean they prefer it?

https://www.succulent-plant.com/soil_ph.html

https://www.rrm.me.uk/Cacti/Cactus%20an ... linity.pdf

Cacti being slow growing may often be forced grow on surfaces which quicker plants that may overtop and crowd them out cannot. Probably if we remove such competition from other plants in cultivation they can grow in many different soil formulations? However the PH of the soil can affect the availability of nutrients, particularly micronutrients.

http://www.cpm-magazine.co.uk/2018/03/0 ... rop-diets/

Some in fact prefer to mimic supposed alkaline habitat soils in order to slow down the growth of those limestone inhabiting cacti in order to stop them getting bloated and retain the hard slow growing habitat look.

https://xerophilia.ro/wp-content/upload ... Eaters.pdf

Gypsum has a neutral PH, unlike limestone for the plants growing on it.

https://www.pthorticulture.com/en/train ... ing-media/
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Steve Johnson
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Re: Eggshell and sand in soil

Post by Steve Johnson »

yukomkom wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 9:39 amThen in this topic - viewtopic.php?f=24&t=33116&p=292019&hil ... ll#p292019 I found tip from Steve:
Add some mineral for drainage to the soil you're using. Horticultural pumice is best, although you may not be able to find it where you live. Other options are fine gravel, scoria, and chicken grit (but make sure it's not eggshell or oystershell -- calcium in a mix is not good for cacti). Whatever you do, do not use sand of any kind!
Could you please provide a bit more info why eggshell (calcium) in soil is bad?

And about sand I regularly prepare soil with 20-25% of it, no issues so far, but still I'm kind of new to cacti. :?
I posted that way back on 4/17/14, and I'll clarify a couple of things there...

Cacti do need a small amount of Calcium, but eggshell or oystershell grit as the sole source for drainage in a soil-based mix is IMO way too much Calcium. That's what I wrote in 2014, although I sorta kinda doubt that anyone would lean out a mix solely with eggshell or oystershell. My cacti get all the Calcium they need through the fertilizer I use, although some growers may need to supplement their mixes with a bit of finely-ground eggshell or limestone if their ferts don't include Calcium. This really depends on the cacti and the grower's practice, so I'll leave the matter up to growers who follow practices that are different from mine.

I'll have to admit that I was being too doctrinaire when I said "don't use sand of any kind". While fine sands like beach and playground-type sand should be avoided, coarse sand (as teo suggested, particle size > 2 mm) is good because it won't turn the mix into a root-suffocating brick.
If you just want photos without all the blather, please visit my Flickr gallery.
My location: Los Angeles, CA (Zone 10b)
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yukomkom
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Re: Eggshell and sand in soil

Post by yukomkom »

Guys, thanks a lot for such detailed explanation! I really appreciate it. :)
I understand that there is no universal 'the best' solution, but a lot of resources in internet propose one, loudly saying, do it. Sometimes it's tempting for anyone to try and as a result harm your cacti.
It's really great to have such a community :D
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MikeInOz
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Re: Eggshell and sand in soil

Post by MikeInOz »

There's no such thing as too much calcium. The problem arises when the carbonates increase pH too much and interfere with certain nutrient uptake.
Therefore, it wholly depends on the FINAL pH of your mix. You need to know the reaction of each ingredient. That's why it is important to learn how to test it properly and understand what will or will not happen over time. In other words, you could use as much eggshell as you want provided the final pH of your mix is within correct limits. For cacti, acid lovers like about 5.5 to 6.5 and limestone growers can handle 6.5 to 7.5 or something like that.
keith
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Re: Eggshell and sand in soil

Post by keith »

The problem arises when the carbonates increase pH too much and interfere with certain nutrient uptake."

Also too acid water also release too many metals and cause toxicity like what happens with Acid rain. lakes go crystal clear and completely toxic.

I think you pointed out regular organic soil will act as a PH buffer but synthetic soils wont. Not sure what the fired diatomaceous earth some growers use reacts with PH ? I guess it acts as a buffer and gives good drainage ? Pumice does not its only good for drainage.
DaveW
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Re: Eggshell and sand in soil

Post by DaveW »

I think we should define what we mean by rainwater and Acid Rain? Rain in unpolluted areas is slightly acid which is normal and plants have ev0lved to suit this. However in our industrial and polluted areas it's acidity may increase too much. Possibly if we are storing rainwater for watering our plants we may need to adjust the PH either up or down, just as we may need to acidify tap water to get a suitable PH. However in most areas rainwater is in the right PH range for plants.

See:-

https://sciencing.com/ph-level-rain-water-5552228.html
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