About the requests for ID, again. We need to consider moderating

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arturo conan
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Re: About the requests for ID, again. We need to consider moderating

Post by arturo conan »

What is wrong with you? Are you overwhelmed by so many identifications?
I must tell you that I am in many cactus forums and in all of them they are happy that those who do not know send identification, the more the better.
here it seems to be a frustration.
You should be glad that those of us who do not know consult the experts.
personally if I had your knowledge I would like to spend all day identifying cactus.
also not everyone thinks so in the forum.
regards
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tumamoc
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Re: About the requests for ID, again. We need to consider moderating

Post by tumamoc »

Aiko wrote: Sat Sep 05, 2020 4:17 pm
esp_imaging wrote: Sat Sep 05, 2020 9:27 am
DaveW wrote: Fri Aug 21, 2020 10:18 am
Aiko is now in charge of Moderating the Identification Forum so no doubt he will come up with some policy regarding the number and frequency of identification requests?
There have been various threads locked but no policy stated. I think this is completely the wrong way to go about this.
It must feel unfriendly to people who have threads locked without breaking any rules.
This only happend for to only two members, both have made several dozens of requests. And they got their answer in the locked treats already. And my message was mostly a suggestion. I think at least one of the two has picked up that message.

I don't mind to think about a policy. But if they don't get read and / or don't get followed, they are probably useless. An automatic limitation is probably the best way to go. I don't know if it is possible within the forum software to limit new members in posting in certain sections (in this case the two identification sections) before they have made, say, 20 posts elsewhere?
It's outrageous that you are locking threads and policing people who are simply asking for plant identifications. I didn't think Cactiguide needed a hall monitor for that. It might be time for me to consider logging out for good.
DaveW
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Re: About the requests for ID, again. We need to consider moderating

Post by DaveW »

Basically we just need simple posting rules then everybody knows what they are doing. The aim is that the content of the Forum will interest everybody, but do we gain that through dozens of repetitive pictures of immature Echinocactus grusonii asking for identification when a couple of minutes web search or a basic book would have identified them? Maybe we need a novice section for such requests? The problem is posting excessive numbers of images for identification at once can turn off the very people you want to identify them, meaning the more experienced growers. Thereby just leaving other beginners to try and identify your plants.

When I started in the 1960's everybody bought a basic book on cactus and succulent cultivation and one on identification of common succulent plants. No internet in those days and people were able to read up on the basics. I cannot believe the modern generation have now lost the ability to read and there are still basic books available on cultivation and cactus and succulent identification. Just a look on your local EBAY will find many cactus books both new and second-hand that will fulfil the basics:-

https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from ... s&_sacat=0

If you want to identify some hard to identify cacti you still have to consult reference works and learn how to read a botanical description and often count spines.

Anyway hopefully in the near future we will have some clarified rules for posting then everybody will know where they are. Nobody wants to discourage beginners, but the forum is intended for all and we need contributors as well as those simply asking identification questions. You may think you have nothing to contribute but your trials and tribulations growing these plants may be of use to others, therefore post them.

When I started all we had were slide shows of plants in other peoples collections. I was enthralled when I first attended a cactus weekend where an overseas speaker had been invited and showed us the actual plants in habitat. I have never tired of seeing habitat images since. As a suggestion for contributors how about some of you who live in habitat posting a few travelogues to show the plants in habitat for others? I am sure some of you go into habitat and take these pictures we all would like to see.

I have only visited habitat once for three weeks but I took 1500 images whilst there and posted most of them in the BCSS Travelogue section. Evidently there is interest in such pictures as the travelogue has had internationally over 40,000 hits since posting. Obviously most visiting many times and not all different people. We have a "Member Bloggs" section that I am sure could be broadened out to include such travelogues?

The BCSS ones are an example of what I mean:-

https://forum.bcss.org.uk/viewforum.php ... 6eb9ad038a

Mine was the "Chile 2015" down the link.

In Britain we seldom went abroad on holiday in the 1960's, now at least pre Covid many do and an increasing number are going to habitat to see the plants in situ. I know a lot on the Continent do so too and I cannot believe those living in the Americas do not go out into habitat or visit other habitat countries so lets see your pictures?

You live in Tucson Tumamoc. I am sure you can do us a short travelogue with pictures of the cacti in habitat in your region which will be of interest to us all?
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Wildhorse1
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Re: About the requests for ID, again. We need to consider moderating

Post by Wildhorse1 »

DaveW wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 8:39 pm
When I started in the 1960's everybody bought a basic book on cactus and succulent cultivation and one on identification of common succulent plants. No internet in those days and people were able to read up on the basics. I cannot believe the modern generation have now lost the ability to read and there are still basic books available on cultivation and cactus and succulent identification. Just a look on your local EBAY will find many cactus books both new and second-hand that will fulfil the basics:-
Did you ever ask a friend back in the old days, "what do you think or know about this one?" That is what I thought I was doing recently.

As a new forum member, seeing this thread has made me very discouraged. I specifically chose this forum because of the level of knowledge so many seemed to have, and would share. I am new at trying to provide the best care I can for the plants in my care. In the past it was less important, maybe because I thought I knew the answers or because now the internet/forums have taught me that there is so much involved in caring for cacti and about the number of different species.

Yesterday I asked for a verification of a very common Opuntia species. I am guessing since there were 50 or more views of my post and not one answer it is because I struck a nerve by asking what seems like a very easy question to answer for someone that has the knowledge. Not because I am lazy, and couldn't look it up. Rather, I knew that there were some exceptionally well versed people here that would know the answer. I tried looking up the species I thought it was, and was unclear, as to my untrained eye there were many that it could possibly be. My vision is not great, so counting spines, finding minute details is sometimes difficult.

I have learned something valuable about the forum, and what I have learned saddens me.
Just an average guy, lucky husband, dinosaur🦖hunter, lover of cacti🌵, animals🦌🐿 and photographing and advocating for the Wild Horses🐎 of the USA.
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Aiko
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Re: About the requests for ID, again. We need to consider moderating

Post by Aiko »

Wildhorse1 wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 9:26 pm Yesterday I asked for a verification of a very common Opuntia species. I am guessing since there were 50 or more views of my post and not one answer it is because I struck a nerve by asking what seems like a very easy question to answer for someone that has the knowledge. Not because I am lazy, and couldn't look it up. Rather, I knew that there were some exceptionally well versed people here that would know the answer. I tried looking up the species I thought it was, and was unclear, as to my untrained eye there were many that it could possibly be. My vision is not great, so counting spines, finding minute details is sometimes difficult.

I have learned something valuable about the forum, and what I have learned saddens me.
The problem here lies in the amount of requests. Not yours specifically, but all combined.

Of the new messages on this forum about half of them are identification requests. A lot of those are from members that have only very recently subscribed to the forum. A lot of those never come back again after their first post. I don't know if they even have checked upon the answers given. I can see quite some helpful effort of those that helped out was lost. And very often they don't even receive a thank you.

You can image this is not appealing for others to help out new members or those with low post counts and saddens long time forum visitors like me.

(By the way, I don't see a request from you. Or, like others, I also overlook it in the "Hello from Colorado, USA" thread you have written?)
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Wildhorse1
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Re: About the requests for ID, again. We need to consider moderating

Post by Wildhorse1 »

Aiko wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 9:39 pm
(By the way, I don't see a request from you. Or, like others, I also overlook it in the "Hello from Colorado, USA" thread you have written?)
I deleted my request.
Just an average guy, lucky husband, dinosaur🦖hunter, lover of cacti🌵, animals🦌🐿 and photographing and advocating for the Wild Horses🐎 of the USA.
DaveW
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Re: About the requests for ID, again. We need to consider moderating

Post by DaveW »

The reason you probably did not get an answer to your request is so few grow enough of the very large Opuntia genus to identify most of the flat padded ones. Particularly those of us outside habitat who cannot grow them outside since they are too invasive for our greenhouses. Therefore we stick to plants that take up less room. We are also not that conversant with many Cerei in the UK for the same reason as they grow too tall. For larger growing Opuntia's you really can only expect those who can grow them in their yards or gardens to be proficient in their identification.

As said nobody wants to stop identifications, just regulate the amount and frequency. We are supposedly a specialist international cactus and succulent forum, not merely a forum attached to a general gardening site where few know the Latin names and all refer to them in the names common in their country that are incomprehensible to the rest of the world. Only the plants Latin names are universal and the same in any language. Therefore people come to specialist sites when the general gardening ones no longer fulfil their needs since they are nearer their level of interest.

One of the only comparable sites in the English Speaking world is the British Cactus & Succulent Society Forum (BCSS) though the German and Continental sites are similar, but in other languages. You will note that the BCSS do not usually get posts of 6 or more images by beginners as we have been doing, all wanting them identified at once. Most just post a couple of images every few weeks. We seem to be unique in getting such long individual posts containing so many plants at once to identify. If you do not believe me see:-

https://forum.bcss.org.uk/viewforum.php ... b98c614168

Nobody wants to stop identification posts, only restrict them to sensible length posts and not of an excessive frequency by each individual. We would welcome your posts on any subject, but please not 6 or more images of different plants to identify in a single post and repeated similar ones every day. Just spread them out over a week or so.

Anyway the matter has been referred to Daiv who owns and pays for the site for his views and decision. We the Mods just enjoy the site for free as you do.

PS. the only Opuntia's I really have are small low growing ones like Tephrocactus, Cumulopuntias etc. I leave the larger flat padded ones to you with the climate to grow them outside. Yes pre Covid we did have a better cactus club or society scene in Europe than many here do to ask the more expert every month for identification. It is also easier to identify plants in the flesh than from any pictures on web sites. But even so we were expected to buy basic books on the subject. Anyway keep posting as everybody's opinion is important.
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Re: About the requests for ID, again. We need to consider moderating

Post by mmcavall »

I think we should create rules for this section. All this discussion is only creating a bad relationship between members. Rules are rules, and are impersonal.
For example:
Cacti Identification Rules:
Any member can post only one request (one thread) per week, containing a maximum of three different plants. Anything above that limit will be deleted by the administrator.
Or something like that.

I think everyone will/should be satisfied to ID three plants of your collection each week.

And no one would have the right to complain about too many requests...rules are rules.

Wild horse1: don't worry, it is nothing personal and it is not because your plant is very common. I asked for ID this week and my post were viewed more than 50 times before someone replied. Note that I have more than 1,000 posts in the Forum. Many people that see our pictures really don't know the species, that's why they don't give an ID (I think).
Anyway, I also believe that if we had less requests per day in the forum it would increase the chances of receiving a reply - for everyone, newbie or experienced members, common or uncommon plants. That's why I think rules are necessary.
DaveW
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Re: About the requests for ID, again. We need to consider moderating

Post by DaveW »

Its a difficult line for Moderators to tread on these forums, just as with editors of cactus society journals. We are after all intended to be Moderators to simply moderate excesses and not censors. Too much heavy stuff drives beginners away but too much basic stuff drives away the more knowledgeable to other forums that cater more for their needs.

Collectors mostly tend to start with general gardening journals and these days their online forums on cacti, then find there is not enough on our particular interest so we move to more specialist forums and societies like this one that are nearer to our interests. We all were beginners once, but as we gain experience we still want to be informed and entertained with material more pertinent to us. However if a site or journal becomes too simplistic with an excess of repeated basic information the more experienced who are best qualified to answer such questions move elsewhere. That is how even more specialist societies start, breaking away from general cactus and succulent societies. For instance the Mesembryanthemum Society, Cactus Explorers, Mammillaria Society and Tephrocactus Study Group. Loosing these people means there is less authoritative material for the bulk of the general journal or forum membership to read.

The only reason the present matter arose is some other members were complaining about a few overlong sets of pictures for identification and also their frequency where some were seemingly trying to get every plant in their collections identified in a couple of days. You don't need rules if people behave sensibly, they are only brought in when people do not. Sometimes merely through over exuberance of those just adopting the hobby who you still want to help if they post reasonably.

We are liaising with Daiv to try and come up with a set of rules to cover identification posts and any ideas from you will be welcome for consideration? As pointed out previously other similar specialist cactus and succulent societies and their forums do not seem to have encountered this excess posting for identification. Nobody wants to stop identification posts, just keep them to sensible image and frequency limits and we will then do our best to identify them. We also need a reasonable image that shows the plants features to do so and flowers are always helpful. Very small seedlings often do not show their adult characteristics until much larger so are difficult to identify at that stage. Anyway with goodwill on both sides the matter will be sorted to most members satisfaction we hope.

Also Wildhorse you will often only get at most one reply identifying your post if others think the first poster got the identification right though many may read it. Whereas if others think they were wrong you may get quite a few replies giving different identifications. The New Cactus Lexicon lists over 80 different flat padded Opuntia's alone and that is after considerable lumping of described species by David Hunt. As said before other than countries with climates where they can be grown outside few are that familiar with them and grow them.
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Re: About the requests for ID, again. We need to consider moderating

Post by samhain »

It really just feels like heavy handed nonsense. Makes me want to post ID threads, which isn’t important to me. It’s not difficult to browse the forum, without relying solely on the new posts tab, but some people can find problems anywhere.
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tumamoc
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Re: About the requests for ID, again. We need to consider moderating

Post by tumamoc »

mmcavall wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 11:08 pm I think we should create rules for this section. All this discussion is only creating a bad relationship between members. Rules are rules, and are impersonal.
For example:
Cacti Identification Rules:
Any member can post only one request (one thread) per week, containing a maximum of three different plants. Anything above that limit will be deleted by the administrator.
Or something like that.

I think everyone will/should be satisfied to ID three plants of your collection each week.

And no one would have the right to complain about too many requests...rules are rules.

Wild horse1: don't worry, it is nothing personal and it is not because your plant is very common. I asked for ID this week and my post were viewed more than 50 times before someone replied. Note that I have more than 1,000 posts in the Forum. Many people that see our pictures really don't know the species, that's why they don't give an ID (I think).
Anyway, I also believe that if we had less requests per day in the forum it would increase the chances of receiving a reply - for everyone, newbie or experienced members, common or uncommon plants. That's why I think rules are necessary.
Establishing rules that limit the number of plants to ID per post or ID request posts per week sounds very reasonable to me. Once the limit is reached, you can require that any additional ID requests be made in a member blog. People might still find a way to abuse that, but it should alleviate some of the traffic in the ID forum.
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tumamoc
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Re: About the requests for ID, again. We need to consider moderating

Post by tumamoc »

DaveW wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 8:39 pm...Anyway hopefully in the near future we will have some clarified rules for posting then everybody will know where they are. Nobody wants to discourage beginners, but the forum is intended for all and we need contributors as well as those simply asking identification questions. You may think you have nothing to contribute but your trials and tribulations growing these plants may be of use to others, therefore post them.

When I started all we had were slide shows of plants in other peoples collections. I was enthralled when I first attended a cactus weekend where an overseas speaker had been invited and showed us the actual plants in habitat. I have never tired of seeing habitat images since. As a suggestion for contributors how about some of you who live in habitat posting a few travelogues to show the plants in habitat for others? I am sure some of you go into habitat and take these pictures we all would like to see.

I have only visited habitat once for three weeks but I took 1500 images whilst there and posted most of them in the BCSS Travelogue section. Evidently there is interest in such pictures as the travelogue has had internationally over 40,000 hits since posting. Obviously most visiting many times and not all different people. We have a "Member Bloggs" section that I am sure could be broadened out to include such travelogues?

The BCSS ones are an example of what I mean:-

https://forum.bcss.org.uk/viewforum.php ... 6eb9ad038a

Mine was the "Chile 2015" down the link.

In Britain we seldom went abroad on holiday in the 1960's, now at least pre Covid many do and an increasing number are going to habitat to see the plants in situ. I know a lot on the Continent do so too and I cannot believe those living in the Americas do not go out into habitat or visit other habitat countries so lets see your pictures?

You live in Tucson Tumamoc. I am sure you can do us a short travelogue with pictures of the cacti in habitat in your region which will be of interest to us all?
I have posted these kinds of adventures here in the past, and never with any really good photography. But I'm tired now, and I don't get out into the wild as much as I'd like. Thanks for the encouragement, though. Maybe I'll get something up soon.
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Aiko
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Re: About the requests for ID, again. We need to consider moderating

Post by Aiko »

tumamoc wrote: Thu Sep 24, 2020 5:59 pm Establishing rules that limit the number of plants to ID per post or ID request posts per week sounds very reasonable to me. Once the limit is reached, you can require that any additional ID requests be made in a member blog. People might still find a way to abuse that, but it should alleviate some of the traffic in the ID forum.
Currently I am more thinking about a max on identification requests compared to the total number of messages posted. As the moderator I do have a set of rules ready I might put into place soon, hopefully.

I do have a few ready, of which these two:
- Up to half of your total messages on the CactiGuide forum can be used to post messages in the identification section. So please think carefully which plants you request to be identified.
- Please post at least half of your total messages in other sections of the CactiGuide forum, such as to participate in discussions or talk about your personal growing experiences.

These are a bit of a combo. And I will be leanient. But at least that give me a tool to stop some excessive abuse (yes, I see it like that) by some posters.

Instead of allowing a certain number of posts per week, this is probably easier for me to keep track off and it also allows for a bit more interaction. One really has to show you like your plants to be identified as you need to put some effort back into the forum when you ask for the efforts of others. I really don't want the identification section to be one way traffic.

Now I as a moderator don't have to count, nor the poster. The poster likely has a sense wether or not the rule of 50%/50% will be met. And I can relatively easy look at the first page in a poster' history to get a feeling if the ratio will be met too.
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Carpkel
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Re: About the requests for ID, again. We need to consider moderating

Post by Carpkel »

I agree that ID request should be limited to 5 per day and possibly 3 times a week. I also feel that the posting restrictions should be visible at the top of the ID request page for everyone to see.

The post at the beginning of the ID request page, "before posting have a quick look here", is a great guide to id cacti, but can be too complicated for a beginner collector. We could use a simplified version of that page of the most common cactus ID's. The top 20 cacti may be a suggestion.
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Re: About the requests for ID, again. We need to consider moderating

Post by mmcavall »

Let me explain why I have created this thread and why I think some moderation is needed. Also I would like to show that my reasons for that are not the same of many.

When I created the thread we were passing through a particularly bad week when there were too many requests and people were giving names to the threads like "PLEASE LOOK HERE!!!!!". We were competing for attention. It is simple:

If there are 3 members, each one asking for one request, any of the members have theoretically ⅓ of chances that it's request will be attended.

However, if members A and B ask for 10 IDs and member C ask for only one, the chances of member C will drop to 1/21.
That's the reason I think moderation is needed.

I think it is not fair when you modestly ask for a single ID and your post is hidden by a series of posts of the same ID-desperated member. Please re-read the first posts of this thread to see more.

That's the reason I think some moderation is needed.

However:
I don't care if someone just entered here to ask for an ID - people are free to do that and it's ok. We want new members to learn, grow and share with us, but some people simply will not. It's ok.

I don't care if there are too many new posts requesting for ID. I will simply ignore them.

I don't care if someone put 30 plants to ID in the same thread....I simply don't waste my time to reply.

I don't care if the person don't recognize the more common cactus of the world. Maybe I'll answer, maybe not.

I never feel that those people are asking to others to do their job. We are always free to ignore the request, so why bother?

And I really don't care if the person never post in another section of the forum (for instance, there are experienced members that never contribute to anything besides posting pictures of his/her plants....so people are different and that's ok).

Forcing people to post something in other sections can result in an overload of useless posts anyway, and it can be annoying.

That was to made clear that I think moderation is necessary even if I'm not annoyed with requests.
It is a matter of creating a more equilibrated environment and people don't compete for attention.

Last, I would say that this discussion and the bad environment created because of that is becoming more annoying than the ID requests.
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