SDK1's Seedlings 2023

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SDK1
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Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2022 7:13 pm

SDK1's Seedlings 2023

Post by SDK1 »

The other day I found an old kitchen sieve at the thrift store that is the size I've been looking for. I resifted my normal soil mix to get it properly between 1/8" and 1/4". I saved the stuff that was smaller than 1/8" and sent that through a fine mesh (>1/16"). Once the dust had been sifted out I was left with this.
Seedling mix
Seedling mix
20230206_132230.jpg (162.25 KiB) Viewed 3185 times
I thought it was perfect for seedlings so I decided to try it. This soil mix is probably about half new, never used and about half old mix so has been somewhat conditioned. I did not sterilize because I simply wanted to see what would happen if I skipped that step. I moistened the media with distilled water plus a diluted fertilizer mix that was comprised of Dyna-gro Foliage Pro and DG Pro-tekt (silica supplement). The seeds were placed on the moist media, sprayed once more and then coved with a thin layer of crushed granite top dressing (2-4mm), sprayed once more, and placed in sandwich baggies.

This past weekend I have sown the following:

- Mammillaria lasiacantha v. wohlschlageri
- Trichocereus "Flying Saucer"
- Echinocereus pectinatus
- Lobivia famatimensis v. sanjuanensis
- Mammillaria mix (~20 different species)

All the above sourced from WildTexasSeeds on Etsy. They were running a 40% off sale so I *had* to.

Also started the following that I'd received through trades last year. These were kept in the fridge for the past several months.

- Euphorbia obesa
- Lophophora species (texana, mixed variety besides that, reliable ID info was lacking)
- Astrophytum myriostigma cultivar mix
- Astrophytum asterias cultivar mix

I'm hoping to see some sort of result within two weeks but that's not stopping me from checking on them every night to see if anything has popped up.
5b/6a - Indiana. Half the year growing outdoors, half the year indoors.

Listening to: Periphery, Termina, Queen Kona, Veil of Maya, Knocked Loose
keith
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Re: SDK1's Seedlings 2023

Post by keith »

Do you use a heat mat ? Two weeks that's about right .
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MrXeric
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Re: SDK1's Seedlings 2023

Post by MrXeric »

I like your seedling mix. I've been considering skipping substrate sterilization too, but I need to come up with an easy method of disinfecting the seeds themselves; despite shortly soaking in hydrogen peroxide, fuzzy growths still appear on the odd seed or two. I've read conflicting accounts on whether fungicides affect germination or not.

Looking forward to seeing those wohlschlageri seedlings develop. The Lasiacanthae series is one of my favorites. :)
SDK1
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Re: SDK1's Seedlings 2023

Post by SDK1 »

keith wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 1:26 am Do you use a heat mat ? Two weeks that's about right .
I do. Unfortunately I don't have a thermometer or temp gun on hand but it's a few years old and a generic brand so I doubt it gets the pots much higher than mid 80s even once it's fully warmed up. Seems to be alright so far. I've got a reptile heat mat that I've got slated for another little project and that sucker gets hot. Here's a picture of my little setup. 5 gallon buckets are easy to use and white is already reflective so it makes it pretty easy to meet the light requirements of almost any plant without a lot of effort or $$$$ spent on lights.
Growth chamber
Growth chamber
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MrXeric wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 5:47 am I like your seedling mix. I've been considering skipping substrate sterilization too, but I need to come up with an easy method of disinfecting the seeds themselves; despite shortly soaking in hydrogen peroxide, fuzzy growths still appear on the odd seed or two. I've read conflicting accounts on whether fungicides affect germination or not.

Looking forward to seeing those wohlschlageri seedlings develop. The Lasiacanthae series is one of my favorites. :)
Thanks, I was pretty happy with the result of a couple rounds of sifting. Plus I was able to avoid peat and coir which is where I have a suspicion a lot of trouble with fungus arises. No proof, just a hunch. Since the only organic part of the mix is pine bark I'm hoping that helps reduce any fungal pressure considering it's rather decay resistant in the first place. Plus I decided to nick Hana's method of using a some larger, coarse material as a top dressing. Figure if it works for them I may as well try it. I'm really looking forward to those wohlschlageri, fingers crossed they germinate. I know some Mamms can be a bit reluctant to germinate the first time around and I'm not sure if lasiacanthas have that reputation.

Also, good news everyone! My first seedlings have come up. Naturally they're the A. myriostigma seeds that I sowed last while the earlier sown seeds are still just hanging out. Nonetheless it's exciting as this the first attempt I've made at growing cacti from seed. They don't look like much yet, but it's pretty cool.
A. myriostigma seedlings
A. myriostigma seedlings
20230208_205206.jpg (99.17 KiB) Viewed 3034 times
Edit: just to clarify, the above picture was taken last night and the post after this is what I discovered tonight.
Last edited by SDK1 on Thu Feb 09, 2023 4:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
5b/6a - Indiana. Half the year growing outdoors, half the year indoors.

Listening to: Periphery, Termina, Queen Kona, Veil of Maya, Knocked Loose
SDK1
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Re: SDK1's Seedlings 2023

Post by SDK1 »

More sprouts as of the check tonight.

Lobivia famatimensis var. sanjuanensis

- Sown 02/04/23
- # sprouts: 2
- # sown : ~10

Trichocereus 'Flying Saucer'

- Sown 02/04/23
- # sprouts: 4
‐ # sown: ~10

Mammillaria lasiacantha ssp. wohlschlageri

- Sown 02/04/23
- # sprouts: 0
- # sown: ~10

Echinocereus pectinatus

- Sown 02/04/23
- # sprouts: 0
- # sown: ~10

Mammilaria mix

- Sown 02/04/23
- # sprouts: 8
- # sown : ~50

Astrophytum myriostigma (refrigerated with no dessicant in a small brown glass vial for 5 months)

- Sown 02/05/23
- # sprouts: 6
- # sown: ~15

Astrophytum asterias (refrigerated with no dessicant in a small brown glass vial for 5 months)

- Sown 02/05/23
- # sprouts: 3
- # sown: 5

Lophophora spp.

- Sown 02/06/23
- # sprouts: 1 (maybe)
- # sown: ~25
5b/6a - Indiana. Half the year growing outdoors, half the year indoors.

Listening to: Periphery, Termina, Queen Kona, Veil of Maya, Knocked Loose
SDK1
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Re: SDK1's Seedlings 2023

Post by SDK1 »

Updates

I've come across the first instance of fungal issues in the Astrophytum myriostigma pot. One of the seedlings was keeled over, noticeably covered in a white fuzz that was more concentrated on the seed coat, directly adjacent to the seedling. Upon closer examination of the pot, I noticed that 3 separate seed coats were somewhat densely covered with a white fuzz. I'm assuming this is one of the myriad fungi/pathogens referred to as "damping off" due to the keeled over nature of the seedling. I looked at the Astrophytum asterias pot in the same baggy and noticed the same white fuzz, again concentrated on the seedcoats of the sprouted seedlings, but with the visible fuzzy fibers seeming to stretch towards the green seedlings.

I opened the bag and, with a pair of plastic tweezers that I liberally sprayed with 70% iso alcohol, removed the compromised A. myriostigma seedling along with the 3 seedcoats most noticeably covered in fuzz. I then sprayed the inside of the bag, both pots, with a 1% solution of hydrogen peroxide that I'd mixed earlier using 10mL of 3% hydrogen peroxide from the store and 20mL of distilled water. The sprayer was just an old eyeglasses cleaner spritz bottle. They're handy due to their size.

I opted not to sterilize my soil mix and many people may point out the risky nature of that. I think that is a good point but what I find more interesting is that the fungus I'm able to see is certainly much more heavily concentrated on the old seedcoats and seems to spread from there. The threads seem to stretch out over the granite with ease from seedcoat to seedcoat and is beginning to spread over some seedlings. What I also find interesting is that the fungus is not growing in high concentrations on or near the organic portion of my soil mix, the pine bark. In fact, the pieces of bark I can see are completely clear of fungal colonization even when there is a heavily colonized seedcoat in direct contact with a piece of the pine bark. It has me wondering about, and appreciating, the inherently anti-fungal or decay resistant properties of pine bark, along with tugging at the part of my brain that remembers MikeInOz talking about the way they start seeds and incorporating some well-aged pine bark compost or other carbon-heavy compost to their seed starting mix.

My current experience also seems to line up with MrXeric's comment about needing to find a way to sterilize the seeds themselves. It's certainly possible, maybe probable, that there were the necessary spores in my soil mix to cause the fungal issues I see currently and perhaps the seedcoats are just the easiest material for the fungus to target first, allowing it to grow and gain a foothold. However, if that were the case, I'd expect to see the same thing happening in all the other pots and that is not the case. I have observed some small filaments of what could be the same fungus in the other pots but nothing like what happened to the Astrophytums. It could be that since the Astrophytums sprouted first and shed their seed coat, they are simply farther along and what happened in that baggy will happen in the others but only time will tell. For now, I'm kind of inclined to think that the source of the pathogen may in fact be the seeds themselves.

I will likely proceed with spraying a 1% solution of hydrogen peroxide on any other fungal growth that starts to get out of hand. I don't have any Physan, Chinosol or other anti-fungal currently so I may have to swing by a garden store or order some online. I've also been thinking about poking some small holes in the baggies to facilitate a liiiiiitle bit of airflow which may help. I'm compulsively checking on the seedlings anyhow so I doubt they'd be at much risk of drying out.

If anyone has any advice or feedback or just wants to share their own experiences, please feel free to. This is my first attempt at growing from seed so this is pretty much a dedicated newbie space.
5b/6a - Indiana. Half the year growing outdoors, half the year indoors.

Listening to: Periphery, Termina, Queen Kona, Veil of Maya, Knocked Loose
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jerrytheplater
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Re: SDK1's Seedlings 2023

Post by jerrytheplater »

Chinosol = 8 hydroxyquinoline sulfate.
Jerry Smith
Bloomingdale, NJ
45 inches (114 cm) rain equivalent per year, approx. evenly spread per month
2012 USDA Hardiness Zone 6b: -5F to OF (-20C to -18C) min.
keith
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Re: SDK1's Seedlings 2023

Post by keith »

I expose Astrophytum to drier air directly after germination no baggie.
DrPlantDaddy
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Re: SDK1's Seedlings 2023

Post by DrPlantDaddy »

Rather than going full sterile, I simply sterilize for the initial germination (as well as spray Chinosol early on). But, I find that introducing beneficial microbes such as mycorrhizae, Bacillus, etc shortly after germination goes a lot further at preventing any pathogens from establishing. There are numerous commercial inoculants you can buy at a local hydro store or online (such as Amazon).
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Kane
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jerrytheplater
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Re: SDK1's Seedlings 2023

Post by jerrytheplater »

DrPlantDaddy wrote: Mon Feb 13, 2023 7:17 pm Rather than going full sterile, I simply sterilize for the initial germination (as well as spray Chinosol early on). But, I find that introducing beneficial microbes such as mycorrhizae, Bacillus, etc shortly after germination goes a lot further at preventing any pathogens from establishing. There are numerous commercial inoculants you can buy at a local hydro store or online (such as Amazon).
I know I'm jumping in on SDK1's thread, but your post interested me. Would you be willing to post a little more information on the beneficial microbes you are using, and maybe give some examples?
Last edited by jerrytheplater on Tue Feb 14, 2023 12:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
Jerry Smith
Bloomingdale, NJ
45 inches (114 cm) rain equivalent per year, approx. evenly spread per month
2012 USDA Hardiness Zone 6b: -5F to OF (-20C to -18C) min.
DrPlantDaddy
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Re: SDK1's Seedlings 2023

Post by DrPlantDaddy »

Absolutely! I try to create a mix of microbes in the soil (such as arbuscular mycorrhizae, ectomycorrhizae, Bacillus and Trichoderms strains, and others), some will form mutualistic associations with the seedlings directly on their roots or in the area immediately around the roots I'm the area known as the rhizosphere. These plant growth promoting microbes will colonize the roots and assist with nutrient uptake, protection against stress, while simultaneously helping compete against pathogen colonization.


This is a good product that offers a lot of different strains in one. While its a bit costlier than others, it remains my go-to choice:
https://www.amazon.com/Great-White-PRPS ... PG6RI?th=1

I regularly use this on seedlings to help against root rot:
https://www.botanicare.com/products/hydroguard/


There are many products available, but here are a few others I've used over the years with good success:

This one also has a low dose of fertilizer, so I typically mix a little in with my soil when transplanting: https://downtoearthfertilizer.com/produ ... ive-5-4-2/

I will sometimes supplement with this one since it has humid acid for the microbes:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0079 ... UTF8&psc=1


Once you get a nice healthy microbial community going, you may start to notice springtails or soil mites. These are not plant pests, but instead it a sign to me that things are really clicking in the soil as there is enough microbial activity to support detritivores that help with decomposition and nutrient cycling.
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Kane
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jerrytheplater
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Re: SDK1's Seedlings 2023

Post by jerrytheplater »

DrPlantDaddy wrote: Mon Feb 13, 2023 8:20 pm Absolutely! I try to create a mix of microbes in the soil (such as arbuscular mycorrhizae, ectomycorrhizae, Bacillus and Trichoderms strains, and others), some will form mutualistic associations with the seedlings directly on their roots or in the area immediately around the roots I'm the area known as the rhizosphere. These plant growth promoting microbes will colonize the roots and assist with nutrient uptake, protection against stress, while simultaneously helping compete against pathogen colonization.


This is a good product that offers a lot of different strains in one. While its a bit costlier than others, it remains my go-to choice:
https://www.amazon.com/Great-White-PRPS ... PG6RI?th=1

I regularly use this on seedlings to help against root rot:
https://www.botanicare.com/products/hydroguard/


There are many products available, but here are a few others I've used over the years with good success:

This one also has a low dose of fertilizer, so I typically mix a little in with my soil when transplanting: https://downtoearthfertilizer.com/produ ... ive-5-4-2/

I will sometimes supplement with this one since it has humid acid for the microbes:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0079 ... UTF8&psc=1


Once you get a nice healthy microbial community going, you may start to notice springtails or soil mites. These are not plant pests, but instead it a sign to me that things are really clicking in the soil as there is enough microbial activity to support detritivores that help with decomposition and nutrient cycling.
Thanks for this response Kane. I'd sure like to see you start a new thread to discuss this more. Turns out my commercial greenhouse grower friend uses mycorrhizal products every few weeks in his greenhouses while he waters. Its just added in to the water as he waters. I asked him Monday and he showed me what he uses, but I forget now. I have to check again.

I was in Wal-Mart the other day and saw an organic cactus fertilizer sold by Espoma that contains 5 Bacillus and 2 Trichodema species. It is too expensive for regular use on all of my plants. I'll just add a little in next time I'm fertilizing. https://www.espoma.com/product/cactus/#tab2
Jerry Smith
Bloomingdale, NJ
45 inches (114 cm) rain equivalent per year, approx. evenly spread per month
2012 USDA Hardiness Zone 6b: -5F to OF (-20C to -18C) min.
SDK1
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Re: SDK1's Seedlings 2023

Post by SDK1 »

Been busy and having to edit all of my photos really puts me off of posting more frequently, unfortunately. Got some really cool seeds recently from someone here on the forum and made time to sow them the other night. I've opted to not sterilize my media or use an anti-fungal. After a couple of run ins with fungal colonization in my earlier attempts, I've tweaked my sowing method and haven't had any fungus develop on the last two batches of sowing so I'm happy how it's working for now.

I use my normal soil mix but send it through a 1/8" sieve and then a 1/16" sieve. I keep and use what doesn't fall through the 1/16". After sowing the seeds I use a top dressing of Turface that's ~1/8". I've set up an old 10 gallon aquarium as an incubator. It has a reptile heat mat on bottom and mylar covering all the sides. I use old newspapers as a makeshift capillary mat and an old 1020 tray lid as the top. I have 3, 10 watt PAR38 lights that I wired up in succession using 18g wire and wire nuts. I also have a small graphics card fan that I scavenged from an old PC tower wired to a 9V DC wall wart that circulates air within the tank so it's not just stagnant. All this is plugged into a GFCI power strip that plugs into a heavy-ish duty outdoor timer. The timer is set for a 14/10 on/off cycle. I've been leaving the 1020 lid all the way on during the days so it gets pretty humid in there with the heat mat going too and cracking it slightly at night. I'm wondering if I should be reversing that but it's been working pretty well so I'm probably not going to change it for awhile. I usually spray the pots once in the morning and once at night with water from the dehumidifier plus some dilute fertilizer. Or if I forget and leave the lid cracked all day I'll just dump a bunch of water in the bottom, let the newspapers soak it up and clamp the lid back on tight. Haven't had any trouble with fungus since switching the top dressing to Turface and cracking the lid a bit more often.
Attachments
New seeds
New seeds
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Soil mix
Soil mix
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Soaking the soil mix
Soaking the soil mix
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Covering with Turface
Covering with Turface
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All done
All done
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3rd column from the right, all 3 pots and 4th column from the right, front 2 pots
3rd column from the right, all 3 pots and 4th column from the right, front 2 pots
20230314_104839.jpg (144.83 KiB) Viewed 2166 times
5b/6a - Indiana. Half the year growing outdoors, half the year indoors.

Listening to: Periphery, Termina, Queen Kona, Veil of Maya, Knocked Loose
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Tom in Tucson
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Re: SDK1's Seedlings 2023

Post by Tom in Tucson »

Just a few comments,

Whoever supplied the seed to you did a good job - Mammillaria herrerae is hard to find.

What is the color coding on the packets?

The white granules in your mix looks like perlite. If it is, have you tried substituting pumice or diatom granules instead?

I think your lighting setup should work fine for cactus, but other succulents will have to be varied somewhat.

Good luck, and good growing!
SDK1
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Re: SDK1's Seedlings 2023

Post by SDK1 »

Tom in Tucson wrote: Tue Mar 14, 2023 6:52 pm Just a few comments,

Whoever supplied the seed to you did a good job - Mammillaria herrerae is hard to find.
Absolutely, I really got lucky on that and had some decent seeds to trade at the time too. Sometimes things just come together.
Tom in Tucson wrote: Tue Mar 14, 2023 6:52 pm What is the color coding on the packets?
That's just my way of keeping track of what's in each pot. I bought an apothecary kit from a garage sale because I wanted the nice glass spray bottle and little glass jars to store seeds in. It came with the stickers. I should get some proper tags but the stickers work pretty well for now. Half the sticker on the pot and half the sticker on the old seed packet is easy enough for the small amount of seeds I have.
Tom in Tucson wrote: Tue Mar 14, 2023 6:52 pm The white granules in your mix looks like perlite. If it is, have you tried substituting pumice or diatom granules instead?
It is perlite. I keep my old soil mix when I repot plants amd just resift it to get the dust out. When I was just starting out one of my earliest versions of soil mix had perlite in it so it still shows up. I'm in Indiana so pumice is hard to come by here for cheap enough to make it worth it. I have seen the calcined DE at the local auto parts store but haven't tried it yet, it's about $5 more for a 20 lb bag compared to the calcined clay product I get which comes in a 35 lb bag.

The ingredients in the mix are as follows:

- crushed granite (acquired as Cherrystone #2 size, 50lb bag)
- calcined clay (acquired as Safe-T-Sorb, 35lb bag)
- pine bark (acquired as pine bark mulch from a typical landscaping/aggregate supply company, 3 cu ft bag)
- perlite (acquired from the same landscaping company as the mulch, 2 cu ft bag)
- Turface MVP as the top dressing (50lb bag, I think)
Tom in Tucson wrote: Tue Mar 14, 2023 6:52 pm I think your lighting setup should work fine for cactus, but other succulents will have to be varied somewhat.
What do you mean? I've been thinking about ordering some mesemb seeds along with some other stuff or trying to trade for some and was thinking I could probably toss them in the same incubator as long as they're not ones that are cool-season growers.
Tom in Tucson wrote: Tue Mar 14, 2023 6:52 pm Good luck, and good growing!
Appreciate it Tom, right back at you.
5b/6a - Indiana. Half the year growing outdoors, half the year indoors.

Listening to: Periphery, Termina, Queen Kona, Veil of Maya, Knocked Loose
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