Stenocereus thurberi rot and debridement

Trouble shoot problems you are having with your cactus.
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zpeckler
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Stenocereus thurberi rot and debridement

Post by zpeckler »

PRE-OP DIAGNOSIS:
Necrotizing soft tissue infection of Stenocereus thurberi, likely secondary to thermal damage

POST-OP DIAGNOSIS:
Same

PROCEDURE:
Excisional debridement of necrotizing soft tissue infection

SURGEON:
Zachary Peckler, MD

DETAILS OF PROCEDURE:
Patient is a Stenocereus thurberi purchased by myself in February of 2022 from Arid Lands Wholesale. The patient was planted in my all-purpose cactus growing medium: 25% loamy potting soil, 25% 3/8" pumice, and 50% Turface MVP. All of last spring and summer the Stenocereus had grown vigorously without incident, nearly doubling its length. Last watering prior to winter dormancy was in October of 2022, and the cactus was over-wintered outside under a plastic shelter that kept it dry during the California winter rains. First watering of spring occurred on 3/15/2023 after the sun came out and daytime temps were in the high 60's; most of my other cacti were starting to show signs of growth and this is the usual time of year that temps get appropriate for the first spring watering.

Pre-opeartive photo. The caliber change in the middle delineates the growth prior to purchase from my growth last year.
Pre-opeartive photo. The caliber change in the middle delineates the growth prior to purchase from my growth last year.
01 Stenocereus thurberi Pre-Op.jpg (226.03 KiB) Viewed 1845 times

I had been out of town on vacation for the last week, and when I returned I made morning rounds on my cacti. I noticed a dark band right at soil-level on the Stenocereus. The growing medium was completely dry to the tough. Reviewing temperature records from my home weather station revealed that while the latest atmospheric river rolled through the minimum overnight temp for the last two nights I was away reached 35F for several hours. This is highly atypical for my area, with temps basically never getting below 40F even during the coldest part of winter.

A glimpse of the necrotic band at soil-level.
A glimpse of the necrotic band at soil-level.
02 Stenocereus thurberi Necrosis.jpg (299.77 KiB) Viewed 1845 times

Further physical exam revealed that the tissue was frankly necrotic (rotting), and disintegrated to mush when probed with forceps. The patient was immediately prepped for emergency surgery to control the necrosis.

The patient and all instruments were sterilized with 70% isopropyl alcohol and draped in the usual sterile fashion. My chief resident enthusiastically assisted me with the procedure. :lol: :D

Had to watch the kid while mommy was getting a Sunday massage!
Had to watch the kid while mommy was getting a Sunday massage!
05 First Assist.jpg (201.31 KiB) Viewed 1845 times

The patient was uprooted and surprisingly showed a well-developed healthy root system, with no sign of root rot or other pathology. The growing medium throughout the entire pot was bone dry. The patient's growing tip appeared healthy, and even had early signs of new spring growth. The necrosis was confined to the band I had observed right at soil-level, but it was circumferential and appeared to extend all the way into the core of the cactus.

Uprooted.
Uprooted.
03 Stenocereus thurberi Uprooted.jpg (212.54 KiB) Viewed 1845 times
The necrotic band is literally just at soil level.
The necrotic band is literally just at soil level.
04 Stenocereus thurberi Closeup.jpg (281.29 KiB) Viewed 1845 times

The patient was transected with a sterilized utility knife 1cm above the ring of necrosis. At the core there was still a 0.5cm dark area that felt soft and mushy.

Cross section after the first cut.
Cross section after the first cut.
06 Stenocereus thurberi First Cut.jpg (259.42 KiB) Viewed 1845 times

Given that there was still necrosis present, the patient was then transected again 2cm above the prior cut. The tissue appeared healthy throughout, and was firm when probed. There was still a small 2mm brown core, but this time it felt hard and woody and I had to really saw through it with the utility knife. Perhaps this represents the "skeletal" structures at the center of columnar cacti?

Cross section after the second cut.
Cross section after the second cut.
07 Stenocereus thurberi Second Cut.jpg (275.64 KiB) Viewed 1845 times

Post-operatively the patient was sent to the recovery room in stable condition. The cut surface will be left to callus over for several weeks before attempting to re-pot.

Post-op photo. I basically ended up cutting away all of the growth that had occurred prior to purchase.
Post-op photo. I basically ended up cutting away all of the growth that had occurred prior to purchase.
08 Stenocereus thurberi Post-Op.jpg (220.34 KiB) Viewed 1845 times



Haha! OK, this post was a little tongue in cheek. I'm an emergency surgeon who frequently has to debride patients with necrotizing fasciitis (the so-called "flesh-eating bacteria") and this situation struck me as similar enough that I wrote it up like one of my operative reports for fun. :wink:

But seriously, I'm pretty bummed. In 7 years of growing cacti seriously this is the first time any of them have rotted! I knew that on paper S. thurberi's cold tolerance was right on the edge of what my climate provided, so I had corresponded with Arid Lands prior to purchase--their S. thurberi they have for sale are grown outside and see temps down to 20F without issue so I decided to give it a shot.

I think I caught the rot early enough that I was able to control it. I'll keep a really close eye on this fellow and cut more off as needed. In the past when I've cut Opuntia and Cylindropuntia segments to get them rooted I haven't put anything on the cut end; just let them callus on their own. Would you guys recommend leaving the end alone like I've done in the past, or is there a product that I should be applying to it?
--------------------
Zac

Butte County, CA, USA
USDA Zone 9b
Mediterranean climate; hot, dry, sunny summers with rainy, moist, mild winters.
FredBW
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Re: Stenocereus thurberi rot and debridement

Post by FredBW »

You should apply sulfur to the wound. It helps stop fungus infections.
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zpeckler
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Re: Stenocereus thurberi rot and debridement

Post by zpeckler »

FredBW wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 1:15 am You should apply sulfur to the wound. It helps stop fungus infections.
Sulfur! Thanks man. I've never used it before; any particular preparation I should look for?
--------------------
Zac

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Steve Johnson
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Re: Stenocereus thurberi rot and debridement

Post by Steve Johnson »

zpeckler wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 1:35 am
FredBW wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 1:15 am You should apply sulfur to the wound. It helps stop fungus infections.
Sulfur! Thanks man. I've never used it before; any particular preparation I should look for?
Nothing special, just plain old sulfur powder -- available at any nursery. This is more concerning:

07 Stenocereus thurberi Second Cut.jpg
07 Stenocereus thurberi Second Cut.jpg (276.25 KiB) Viewed 1824 times
You should be seeing nothing but healthy tissue, and that dark spot right in the center indicates necrosis. Just to give you an example of what you should look
for -- I got an Echinocereus pectinatus 'Coahuila' from CoronaCactus Nursery in July 2013. The poor thing lost its roots in the winter of 2014/15. Time for a "rootectomy":

Echinocereus_pectinatus_'Coahuila'0131-02062015.jpg
Echinocereus_pectinatus_'Coahuila'0131-02062015.jpg (107.64 KiB) Viewed 1824 times
Successful surgery -- healthy tissue on the left and a liberal dusting of sulfur powder on the right:

Echinocereus_pectinatus_'Coahuila'02062015_06.JPG
Echinocereus_pectinatus_'Coahuila'02062015_06.JPG (95.14 KiB) Viewed 1824 times
Try cutting the Stenocereus more to get rid of the necrosis. If you end up with nothing more than a nubbin, unfortunately the cactus is gone. Having lost a few cacti to necrosis myself, I've found that the outlook for recovery isn't good once it goes too far up into the core.
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zpeckler
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Re: Stenocereus thurberi rot and debridement

Post by zpeckler »

Steve Johnson wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 4:03 am Try cutting the Stenocereus more to get rid of the necrosis. If you end up with nothing more than a nubbin, unfortunately the cactus is gone. Having lost a few cacti to necrosis myself, I've found that the outlook for recovery isn't good once it goes too far up into the core.
Thanks for your advice, Steve. You were proven 100% right when I checked on the cutting this morning. The spot in the core was much more obviously dark-looking, and felt soft when probed. The cut end had dried out some, which made the actual fibrous core easier for me to distinguish from the spot of rot.

Before going into work I cut it back some more, but I'm afraid this poor guy may be a gonner. I'm down to only about 1.5" of cactus left, and haven't gotten to the end of the rot! It's really shocking how far up the core it can travel when there was only a little on the outside.

This is such a bummer! First cactus I've lost since I started raising them seriously in 2015. Of course before that I killed a bunch doing dumb stuff like plating them in 100% potting soil and watering them in winter, but it's been a while. Well, live and learn I guess. If I get my hands on another S. thurberi it'll definitely be wintered inside!
--------------------
Zac

Butte County, CA, USA
USDA Zone 9b
Mediterranean climate; hot, dry, sunny summers with rainy, moist, mild winters.
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Steve Johnson
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Re: Stenocereus thurberi rot and debridement

Post by Steve Johnson »

zpeckler wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 12:08 amFirst watering of spring occurred on 3/15/2023 after the sun came out and daytime temps were in the high 60's; most of my other cacti were starting to show signs of growth and this is the usual time of year that temps get appropriate for the first spring watering.
Did that include watering your Stenocereus?
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zpeckler
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Re: Stenocereus thurberi rot and debridement

Post by zpeckler »

Steve Johnson wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 10:38 pm
zpeckler wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 12:08 amFirst watering of spring occurred on 3/15/2023 after the sun came out and daytime temps were in the high 60's; most of my other cacti were starting to show signs of growth and this is the usual time of year that temps get appropriate for the first spring watering.
Did that include watering your Stenocereus?
Yeah, I watered it too with the rest of my cacti on 3/15. In retrospect that probably to early and primed it for the rot, but when I unpotted it the growing medium was bone dry so the way to the bottom of the pot so I'm a little mystified. At this point literally all my other cacti are growing--as I would expect at this time of the year from my previous experience--but I guess the Stenocereus needed even hotter temps before it would have been safe to water.

I'm definitely taking all this as a learning experience.
--------------------
Zac

Butte County, CA, USA
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Mediterranean climate; hot, dry, sunny summers with rainy, moist, mild winters.
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Re: Stenocereus thurberi rot and debridement

Post by Steve Johnson »

zpeckler wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 12:10 am
Steve Johnson wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 10:38 pm
zpeckler wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 12:08 amFirst watering of spring occurred on 3/15/2023 after the sun came out and daytime temps were in the high 60's; most of my other cacti were starting to show signs of growth and this is the usual time of year that temps get appropriate for the first spring watering.
Did that include watering your Stenocereus?
Yeah, I watered it too with the rest of my cacti on 3/15. In retrospect that probably to early and primed it for the rot, but when I unpotted it the growing medium was bone dry so the way to the bottom of the pot so I'm a little mystified. At this point literally all my other cacti are growing--as I would expect at this time of the year from my previous experience--but I guess the Stenocereus needed even hotter temps before it would have been safe to water.

I'm definitely taking all this as a learning experience.
You're not the only one having to learn hard way, but learning from our mistakes is still learning as long as we heed the lessons...

Sorry, but I wouldn't even think about watering until the overnight lows are consistently above 50 in spring. I have yet to see overnights consistently above the 40s here in SoCal, but when this week's rain passes, the lows should start moving up in time for the collections's first deep watering of the year over Easter weekend. Moral of the story: Even when they're under cultivation, cacti generally don't die of dehydration, but it's easy to kill them with misguided kindness if they're watered when they're not ready for it yet. With that in mind, here's a good watering rule I learned from an expert grower in 2012 -- when in doubt, don't! :D
If you just want photos without all the blather, please visit my Flickr gallery.
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zpeckler
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Re: Stenocereus thurberi rot and debridement

Post by zpeckler »

Steve Johnson wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 2:06 am
zpeckler wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 12:10 am
Steve Johnson wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 10:38 pm
Did that include watering your Stenocereus?
Yeah, I watered it too with the rest of my cacti on 3/15. In retrospect that probably to early and primed it for the rot, but when I unpotted it the growing medium was bone dry so the way to the bottom of the pot so I'm a little mystified. At this point literally all my other cacti are growing--as I would expect at this time of the year from my previous experience--but I guess the Stenocereus needed even hotter temps before it would have been safe to water.

I'm definitely taking all this as a learning experience.
You're not the only one having to learn hard way, but learning from our mistakes is still learning as long as we heed the lessons...

Sorry, but I wouldn't even think about watering until the overnight lows are consistently above 50 in spring. I have yet to see overnights consistently above the 40s here in SoCal, but when this week's rain passes, the lows should start moving up in time for the collections's first deep watering of the year over Easter weekend. Moral of the story: Even when they're under cultivation, cacti generally don't die of dehydration, but it's easy to kill them with misguided kindness if they're watered when they're not ready for it yet. With that in mind, here's a good watering rule I learned from an expert grower in 2012 -- when in doubt, don't! :D
Thanks dude, your advice is always solid.

My previous signal for when to do the spring's first watering is when the cacti start showing growth (new spines, flesh, or flowers). In my area that's typically been about now. This year was maybe delayed a few weeks because it's a little colder because of the storms. At this point nighttime temps are still consistently in the low 40s, with daytime temps in the mid-60s.

At this point I am, of course, not gonna water them until overnight temps get solidly in the 50s. This makes me interrogate how I do things at the end of the season, as well. In the past I've stopped watering at the beginning of October when the weather gets "colder" and the cacti growth "slows down," but looking back at it these are both very subjective criteria.

Unless you have a different suggestion, I'll stop watering for the year when temps drop back into the 40s. Looking at the data from my weather station for last year that should happen at the same time I would have stopped watering them anyway, but now I'll have an objective measure to point to to guide my decisions.

Gotta do what I can to tighten up my cultivation practices. Most of the cacti I've had for a while are species that seem to be regarded as "beginner" or "intermediate," but the last few years I've been trying to challenge myself with some more difficult species.
--------------------
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Steve Johnson
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Re: Stenocereus thurberi rot and debridement

Post by Steve Johnson »

One thing that'll really help -- check the National Weather Service for your 7-day forecasts on a regular basis. Just go here...

https://www.weather.gov/

...type in your zip code, and you'll get the forecasts from your local NWS weather station. My nearest station is at USC about 3 miles east of where I live, and my forecasts can't get any more local than that. When you're on your forecast page, you can dig deeper by clicking on the hourly forecast. The graphs give you a whole lot of information, and you'll get something you won't find anywhere else:
  • The amount of precipitation you can expect.
  • Wind chill numbers for windy winter nights.
Forget about weather.com, AccuWeather, and your local news -- NWS is much better, and more accurate too.
If you just want photos without all the blather, please visit my Flickr gallery.
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zpeckler
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Re: Stenocereus thurberi rot and debridement

Post by zpeckler »

Well, I just wanted to post an update. It's been a month and a half and my Stenocereus is... still alive?!?!?!?!

After the last cut I couldn't bring myself to just throw it away, so instead I put sulfur powder on the cut end and have had it sitting on my desk to observe the natural progression of the disease. To my surprise the bottom calloused over and it's just been kinda hanging out ever since. As you can see in the pics below there's still a discolored spot in the center, but like the rest of the callous that part is hard as a rock. The discolored spot hasn't even grown or changed in any way since the callous formed. The rest of the plant is just as firm and green as it was the day I cut it, and almost exactly 2 inches long (not including spines, of course).
PXL_20230515_162111506.jpg
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PXL_20230515_162019936.jpg
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I mean, I still think that because of the discoloration and signs of rot in the core when I cut it, ultimately the poor fellow has little chance of survival. I guess I'm just surprised it's survived this long. I'll keep it around and continue to watch it.
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Steve Johnson
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Re: Stenocereus thurberi rot and debridement

Post by Steve Johnson »

If you see new root stubs forming on the bottom, maybe it wasn't rot after all. The cutting you have left looks remarkably unshriveled, so definitely worth keeping an eye on -- I think you're a long way from giving up on this one. And if new root stubs do appear, here's how MikeInOz goes about rooting:
MikeInOz wrote: Sat Sep 11, 2021 3:25 amI do use sulphur to dust large cuts. The trick is to properly season the cut. I normally sit the plant upside down in an airy shed until the wound is quite hard and the plant body dehydrated a bit then sit in a styrofoam cutting box on dry sand with a touch of humus in a warm slightly shaded spot. Lightly misting now and then seems to stimulate rooting, then when the roots have broken, a good soak followed by complete drying and repeat the cycle. I find it's good to let the plant root in the box for a whole season before lifting.
Haven't had to do this myself, but I may, so if I do, here's the potting sand I'll use:

https://www.amazon.com/Original-Ingredi ... s9dHJ1ZQ==

I hope this works out for you! :)
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Re: Stenocereus thurberi rot and debridement

Post by zpeckler »

Re-potted the "cutting" in a mixture of sand, Turface, and potting soil. I lost the note where I wrote down the proportions, but I think it was 25% horticultural sand, 25% potting soil, and 50% Turface. I haven't tugged at it or unearthed it to check the roots in about a month. I've been misting it mid-week, and watering it on weekends along with the rest of my collection.

Today I was checking my my cacti and I noticed that the little dude is looking noticeably plumper than it did a week ago! No sign of growth yet, but hell, that it's plumping up is a sign of root growth! I'm really excited! Come this winter if things continue to go well I'll re-pot it into my regular cactus growing medium.
Stenocereus thurberi.jpg
Stenocereus thurberi.jpg (245.84 KiB) Viewed 1347 times
--------------------
Zac

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Re: Stenocereus thurberi rot and debridement

Post by jerrytheplater »

WooHoo!!!
Jerry Smith
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45 inches (114 cm) rain equivalent per year, approx. evenly spread per month
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Re: Stenocereus thurberi rot and debridement

Post by zpeckler »

Well, one last update in this plant's rot saga. I'm in the process of my winter repotting and when I got to my S. thurberi "cutting" I was really happy to see a good bunch of roots! I think this plant is out of the woods, even if it's only a quarter of its former size.
S-thurberi-cutting-2024.jpg
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--------------------
Zac

Butte County, CA, USA
USDA Zone 9b
Mediterranean climate; hot, dry, sunny summers with rainy, moist, mild winters.
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