Astrophytum special names

[mmcavall]

Astrophytuns receive japanese names according to traits they present, such as "kikko", "onzuka", "fukuryu" etc.
I would like to learn more about that.

Is there any web site were I could find this kind of information?

Also, do we have here in the forum a thread to identify and give name for different forms of Astrophytum? If not, could we start one here?

I would start with this one. It is a myriostigma but how could I call it? Looks like it deserves a japanese name but I have no idea of which.

IMG-20240522-WA0005_copy_600x777.jpg (66.72 KiB) Viewed 853 times

Thanks in advance!

[MikeInOz]

It is a myriostigma

It's a hybrid 100% and I would say 99% of the cultivars we see are hybrids of one kind or another.
The best you can call it is.....''Astrophytum hybrid''

[DaveW]

See some of the links here:-

viewtopic.php?t=45217

[mmcavall]

It is a myriostigma

It's a hybrid 100% and I would say 99% of the cultivars we see are hybrids of one kind or another.
The best you can call it is.....''Astrophytum hybrid''

Thank you Mike.
By "hybrid" you mean crossed with another species ? Which one would it be? Is it possible to know? Ornatum? Asterias?

Thank you very much

[mmcavall]

See some of the links here:-

viewtopic.php?t=45217

Thank you Dave!

[Nino_G]

By "hybrid" you mean crossed with another species ? Which one would it be? Is it possible to know? Ornatum? Asterias?

Your plant is most likely cross between A. asterias "Superkabuto" and A. coahuilense. I sowed a batch of seeds of that particular hybrid couple of years ago, and there are several plants that closely resemble the plant on your picture.

[mmcavall]

By "hybrid" you mean crossed with another species ? Which one would it be? Is it possible to know? Ornatum? Asterias?

Your plant is most likely cross between A. asterias "Superkabuto" and A. coahuilense. I sowed a batch of seeds of that particular hybrid couple of years ago, and there are several plants that closely resemble the plant on your picture.

That is very Interesting Nino. Thank you

[Hanazono]

I can not say exactly from just one photo but I think Nino_G may be correct. The name of scion on the photo is an Astrophytum hybrid, HakuranSuper which was not rare in Japan about 15 years ago but I do not know now.

Hakuran: coahuilense
Super: super kabuto
Flecking of 1st filial hybrid is not so thick but 2nd filial plant shows thick flecking as like your plant.
I assume your plant is (coahuilense x super kabuto) x super kabuto

If you make an Astrophytum hybrid, you should consider following two groups.
Group 1: asterias, coahuilense, capricorne, senile (yellow petals and orange throat)
Group 2: myriostigma, ornatum ( yellow petals only)
Crossing species in same group can make a healthy hybrid.
Crossing species in group 1 x group 2 can make seeds but seedlings are very weak which can not live longer.

Onzua and fukuryu are group 2.
Hybrid, myriostigma x asterias is difficult to keep.
Asterias can not receive pollen of any other Astrophytum species. Asterias can be a pollen supplier only.
I have 1st and 2nd filial hybrids, HakuranSupers.

Frank

[MikeInOz]

Group 1: asterias, coahuilense, capricorne, senile (yellow petals and orange throat)
Group 2: myriostigma, ornatum ( yellow petals only)
Crossing species in same group can make a healthy hybrid.
Crossing species in group 1 x group 2 can make seeds but seedlings are very weak which can not live longer.

That is good to know. Thanks Frank.

[DaveW]

Regarding names of hybrids and cultivars as I understand it. Strictly speaking the cultivar name usually only applies to the one selected plant and not all other seedlings from even the same fruit or batch. Probably a lot of the fancy names we see are "selling names" rather than registered cultivars according to the "Code". To be sure of obtaining the same cultivar it needs to be vegetatively propagated and not from seed. The "red lollypop" chlorophyll deficient G. mihanovichii is an example of this, all arising from one original tiny seedling.

"The plant chosen as a cultivar may have been bred deliberately, selected from plants in cultivation, or discovered in the wild. It is maintained in cultivation by asexual propagation or it may be seed-raised from inbreeding within the cultivar. Clones produced by vegetative (asexual) propagation are genetically identical and will appear so when grown under the same conditions.

Seed-raised cultivars can be mixes that show a wide variation in one or more traits, such as a mix of flower colours, or may be highly homogeneous plant strains produced by heavily selecting out undesirable traits, thus producing a breeding line that is uniform. Cultivars can be F1 hybrids produced by cross breeding, and there are a few F2 hybrid seed cultivars too (Achillea 'Summer Berries')."

https://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/en ... 20cultivar.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internati ... ted_Plants

[Lucy_V]

IMO this is the best book about Astrophytum hybrids
https://www.uhlig-kakteen.de/en/roman-p ... =200051133
It is hard to find in US, but possible

[DaveW]

I think our Administrator Daiv's bookshop has it Lucy:-

https://exoticplantbooks.com/detail/?product_id=1137

[mmcavall]

Thanks a lot Frank, Dave and Lucy.
I had already seen this book but it is too expensive for me...maybe someday. Thank you all

[mmcavall]

Onzua and fukuryu are group 2.
Hybrid, myriostigma x asterias is difficult to keep.
Asterias can not receive pollen of any other Astrophytum species. Asterias can be a pollen supplier only.
I have 1st and 2nd filial hybrids, HakuranSupers.

Frank

That is very interesting and important, Frank, thanks for sharing this information. It is essencial to those like me that want to play with Astrophytum crosses.

Not sure I understood correctly: when you said that Onzuka and Fukuryu are group 2, do you mean that an Onzuka plant is a result from a cross between two diferent species of the group 2? If yes, which are the parent species? The same for Fukuryu.

I always believed that onzukas were only a selected lineage of Astrophytum myriostigma with special flecking, not an hybrid.

Second question is about the fact that asterias can not receive pollen from other species. I have asterias and capricorne side by side in the bench and when I want pure capricorne or pure asterias seeds I have to separate them because I know they interbreed easily. So now I learned that I dont have to isolate the asterias plants to obtain pure asterias seeds since they do not accept pollen from other species, right?
And what about the pollen from an hybrid asterias x capricorne? Will it successfully pollinate an asterias plant? In other words, do I have to be concerned about the hybrids that are near the pure asterias, if I want pure asterias seeds?

Thanks a lot for sharing your knowledge

[Hanazono]

G'day mmcavall,

Not sure I understood correctly: when you said that Onzuka and Fukuryu are group 2, do you mean that an Onzuka plant is a result from a cross between two diferent species of the group 2? If yes, which are the parent species? The same for Fukuryu.

Onzuka was developed by Mr. Onzuka. Original plant was just one, myriostigma v tulense. Various forms of myriostigmas were cressed with but he used myriostigma only and so Onzuka is group 2.

Fukuryu has 3 basic species.
Fukuryu ranpo (myriostigma)
Fukuryu banjyaku (myriostigma x ornatum)
Fukuryu hannya (ornatum)
Only fukuryu banjyaku is a hybrid but all of them are group 2.

And what about the pollen from an hybrid asterias x capricorne? Will it successfully pollinate an asterias plant?

An hybrid asterias x capricorne is not an asterias. A true asterias does not receive any pollen of other Astrophytum species.
Japanese asterias collecters dislike to mix other astrophytum species in asterias. They also dislike to graft asterias.

do I have to be concerned about the hybrids that are near the pure asterias, if I want pure asterias seeds?

It is not easy to get seeds of true asterias nowadays. A hobby collecter should not be conscerned about.
Japanese asterias collecter keep asterias only, no other astrophytum species together with.

Frank