I'm looking for Lophophora alberto-vojtechii seed in the US

[DaveW]

There has always been a dispute about what alkaloids Lophophora species contain and which is the most hallucinogenic:-

http://lophophora.blogspot.co.uk/p/mesc ... loids.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"What makes something hallucinogenic?

The fact is that some species of cacti are hallucinogenic and some are not. What is the cause of this psychoactive ability in these species? Simply the presence of alkaloids in the plant does not necessarily mean that it is hallucinogenic. Granted, there are some types of alkaloids that provide psychoactive effects. In the cacti this might be mescaline, which is found in Lophophora williamsii, Opuntia cylindrica (Prickly Pear), and the San Pedro Cactus (Trichocereus pachanoi) (Ghansah 1993). Yet, very few of the other hallucinogenic cacti actually contain mescaline. Instead, they contain other compounds, including hordenine and N-methyltyramine. Often, while each individual alkaloid when isolated, may not produce an effect on the individual, the effect of all alkaloids in any cacti together, produce a synergistic effect (Anderson 1996). The cacti and their alkaloids will reveal that there is a great diversity of species in not only the phenotypic physical appearance of the cacti, but also in their alkaloids, and the physiological response when consumed."

http://www.thewildclassroom.com/biodive ... genics.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The problem with all hallucinogens is not that they occur normally in plants, but that some idiots misuse them being too psychologically inadequate to face the world in their normal state of mind!

If the authorities were to ban all hallucinogen containing plants in case somebody may misuse them we would have few plants in our gardens or parks:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ps ... ive_plants" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[cefalophone]

I have never read any paper questioning which alkaloids found in the lophophora genus are the most hallucinogenic. I thought it was a known fact mescaline is the primary active alkaloid. Also opuntia's only contain trace amounts of mescaline as do a few other genus. Only the lophophora and trichocereus genus contain useable amounts of mescaline and are hallucinogenic. No other cacti is known to have hallucinogenic properperties but lophophora diffusa is said to induce delerium from its high concentrations of pellotine. But as far as I am aware that is just speculation.

[DaveW]

"The peyote cactus contains more than 50 different alkaloids, but the most active hallucinogen is mescaline. The chemistry, botany and history of peyote is discussed in a fascinating book by E.F. Anderson (Peyote: The Divine Cactus, 1976). Mescaline has a chemical structure similar to the brain neurotransmitter dopamine. It is also structurally similar to the neurohormone norepinephrine (noradrenalin) and to the stimulant amphetamine. In the peyote cactus, mescaline is formed in a complex pathway from the amino acid tyrosine. A similar pathway in humans produces epinephrine (adrenalin) and its demethylated precursor norepinephrine from tyrosine. Dopamine and its precursor L-dopa are also derived from a tyrosine pathway.

Mescaline also occurs in several other cactus species, including the commonly cultivated, night-blooming, South American San Pedro cactus (Trichocereus pachanoi)."

Note the above says the most active is Mescaline, but not that it is the only one with hallucinogenic properties.

"One of the largest groups of chemical arsenals produced by plants are the alkaloids. Many of these metabolic by-products are derived from amino acids and include an enormous number of bitter, nitrogenous compounds. According to R.F. Raffauf (Plant Alkaloids: A Guide To Their Discovery and Distribution, 1996), more than 10,000 different alkaloids have been discovered in species from over 300 plant families. Alkaloids often contain one or more rings of carbon atoms, usually with a nitrogen atom in the ring. The position of the nitrogen atom in the carbon ring varies with different alkaloids and with different plant families. In some alkaloids, such as mescaline, the nitrogen atom is not within a carbon ring. In fact, it is the precise position of the nitrogen atom that effects the properties of these alkaloids. Although they undoubtedly existed long before humans, some alkaloids have remarkable structural similarities with neurotransmitters in the central nervous system of humans, including dopamine, serotonin and acetylcholine. The amazing effect of these alkaloids on humans has led to the development of powerful pain-killer medications, spiritual drugs, and serious addictions by people who are ignorant of the properties of these powerful chemicals."

I think this was the paper by Michael S. Smith that one of my previous links was based on, and there are still questions as to which alkaloids are hallucinogenic as native medicine is often poorly researched:-

http://www.lycaeum.org/xenopharmacophilia/nhc.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Interesting the statement in the link above:-

"Ariocarpus fissuratus:

Though it contains no mescaline it is considered by the Tarahumara to be more powerful than L. williamsii and is used by them as a narcotic and magical plant. That this plant is considered stronger than L. williamsi is rather impressive considering its minimal alkaloid composition."

[cefalophone]

In your previous post you stated there has always been a dispute which alkaloid was the most hallucinogenic and that confused me. Your last post proves I was correct in thinking mescaline is the primary active alkaloid. The secondary alkaloids may not even be psychotropic at all on their own. Not all alkaloids are hallucinogenic. Hordenine is used as a stimulant and I know other alkaloids from lophophora were bioassayed with little to no effect when such research was allowed.

Also I doubt ariocarpus would be "magical" in the sense we are thinking even if that statement were to be true. I know very little of the tarahumara culture but I do know you can not apply western thinking to an indigenous American culture. I hope no one feels like exploring claims like this and then goes off ingesting random cacti. Who knows what adverse reactions they could cause upon themselves. Unless it's nopales no one should eat any cacti haha.

[KittieKAT]

Hp22b - heard about the first sprout! That's great!!

Lol Lol Davew, o totally agree that people are moronic for killing and eating a plant because they are bored and need to feel something in their miserable life's!

[adetheproducer]

Hp22b - heard about the first sprout! That's great!!

Lol Lol Davew, o totally agree that people are moronic for killing and eating a plant because they are bored and need to feel something in their miserable life's!

If they are harvested right it does not kill them and people don't just use it cus they are bored or have miserable lives, these are psychedelic substances not regularly or easily abused drugs, for most users of peyote are in fact doing it for religious reasons with only a very small minority using it for other reasons which are no less valid. You cannot get addicted to these type of substances as they do not interact with the dopamine circuits.
While I agree the wild populations of these plants should be left undisturbed and I also agree that unscrupulous wild harvest is extremely damaging for the longevity of the species there is more to the argument than simple western culture thinking of substance use/abuse. I bet you don't share the same opinion of uses of refined sugar( the worlds first refined drug that has no use in human dietary function and kills with obesity and diabetes world wide), tea, coffee, alcohol( the world biggest killing drug directly or indirectly) or doctor prescribed anti-depressants/anti-anxiety drugs but ultimately these as well as all other drugs are used to get the human species through life in an enjoyable stress free way.

[KittieKAT]

I don't use additive sugar, Alcohol, drugs or medication like that but people who do stuff just cause they wanna get fucked up are the people who don't care about the plant's being correctly harvested or Have any intrest in the religious association with this plant. That they indeed just use it just to get messed up and "deal" with their lives. The fact that people are actually killing and destroying the plant in the wild because of its mystical property's when ingesting is crazy, they are wiping out a beautiful and interesting cactus from the world, they actually tell people to dig up and destroy this plant if seen in the wild to keep people from using it illegally, which makes no sence to ME at ALL! People are always gonna find something to get high on, but the fact that they ban this plant in states because people have misused them is driving me crazy, nor everyone wants this cactus so they can get a trip some just want one for there collection and study it as a fascinating plant then a plant that they can use to get high on. But as humans we seem to always try to find away to make something that's so seemingly innocent into something that can be misused and banned...
Like some people have nutmeg in their kitchen cabinets and use it for cooking, while others will actually smoke it and get a weird high feeling....i don't get it...

[adetheproducer]

Getting "high" is a part of human nature and has been done through out all of human history. It is also a part of other animal nature with jaguars in Amazon rain forest eating mushrooms to improve hunting capabilities, bees deliberately drinking fermented nectar, Lemurs biting giant millipedes for the poisons produced, moose eating apples, the list goes on and on. Getting high or better still using naturally produced chemicals in food to improve survival chances is inherently normal, its only in the last 100 year of human history we have outlawed these practices. There is a definite separation between addition and use and getting totally fucked up can fall into either category but it is entirely healthy and beneficial socially and personally if you do not have a problem. But that is a separate argument to destruction of environment. If peyote was legal to grow then the people who just want to get fucked up can grow it them selves, have a permanent cultivated source so no plants in the wild are damaged. In fact the most damaging practice of peyote harvest is actually from cacti collection for trade and religious collections, this is due to the spiritual connection to the older will specimens have more power or worth so these are the one collected. Also the practice of digging them up rather than leaving them rooted and just harvesting the crown causes a lot of issues. This as well as crown removal reduced seed production of wild population as well a physical mass of population reductions means the breading cycles are adversely affected. Probably the best way to secure the very much needed wild populations of peyote would be to stop religious harvesting of wild populations and a legalisation for ownership and use of peyote allowing free cultivation. The religious users are also using it just the deal with their lives, they have just formed a dogmatic system of use which rose around discovering the effects of the plant. The more rules you try to enforce the more dark and underground a substance use become meaning more dodgy people get involved making it more morally corrupt. I'm sure if a bunch of hippies who want a spiritual awaking from peyote or a group of bored teenagers looking for something fun to do would much prefer growing they're own or popping down the local cacti nursery rather than frequenting potentially dangerous dealers touting illegal drugs as a preference over these natural psychedelics. And yes I very much agree with you, people who just wanna get fucked up dont care where the substances come from but those people don't use psychedelics for that purpose it does not work and more to the point if they did they probably would stop being people who just wanna get wacked out due to the amazing introspective qualities of these substances. You say you do not use drugs, neither do the people using peyote, san pedro, mushrooms, cannabis...the list goes on, they are naturally occurring foods with thousands of years of recorded history of use with equally thousands of positive experiences, give it a go you may find out more about your self in one night in a safe controlled environment such as a ayahuasca retreat or native american peyote ceremony that you learnt in the years you have already lived.

[Mark]

Hey kitkat-- I think you need to watch your language..

Check this link out:
http://www.cactiguide.com/forum/viewtop ... =2&t=18659" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[KittieKAT]

Lemers bite those millipiedes because the stuff that they secrete makes bugs be repelled so they wipe it all over themselves.
I totally agree ade,with what you are saying, i don't personally find the majority of the natural plants (that aren't chemically changed like heroin or cocaine) that bad as long as they are controlled and not misused, a lot of natural holistic "drugs" help with cancer and diabetes and pain and other mental issues but are banned because misuse is much higher then practical/managed use. If more things were legal they could tax them for being used and profit from them to help the economy, but that's another long chat...lol
Any ways i think people should value these plant's and care for them and not destroy them because of what they can do, and just enjoy what they do and are as plants!

[KittieKAT]

And sorry Mark, ot was suppose to say "fricked up" Not F**ked up
This phone drives me utterly CRAZY when it changes the words or predicts the text. ..

[DaveW]

I am afraid society has dual standards when it comes to addictive and mind altering drugs. Politicians ban those where no significant jobs are involved in our countries, therefore don't loose any votes for them, but allow addictive drugs like alcohol or tobacco to continue where traditional lucrative industries and employment is concerned. Mind altering states are dangerous for both the person concerned and those around them, particularly if they drive, use machines or make critical decisions when in them, be from alcohol or other forms of drugs. The only problem is many of our politicians are often "half cut" too when they pass legislation. I have always thought all politicians should be breathalysed just before they are allowed record a vote in our legislatures and certainly the British Parliament is no place for the bar selling alcohol to members! If you turned up drunk to work you would probably get fired, our MP's can even vote in that state!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politic ... -bill.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[DaveW]

Just noticed SuccSeed has some Lophophora seed:-

http://www.succseed.com/seeds-cacti/lophophora/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[HP22B]

I actually have a few varieties of SuccSeed's Lophs from different regions. The KKR382s germinated (badly) but didn't survive, I currently have a couple seedlings of LX228a, Huasteca Canyon, and Los Tecolotes. I have a biochemistry background so I am very interested in the interesting alkaloids present in these species, but not for eating

Here's an update on the original topic of this post:

[KittieKAT]

I've Gotton some from succseed but they haven't came its been almost 3 weeks, should i panic NOW?
And they don't have that many selections of vars just the fricii and Williamsii and i think one other, but i finally got decipiens seeds soo I'm happy! ....or will be once my friend actually send them to me