Winter (ugh!) is coming

Do-it-yourself projects such as greenhouse or shadehouse builds and related topics.
fanaticactus
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Winter (ugh!) is coming

Post by fanaticactus »

And I have to start thinking about possibly insulating my new GH. This will be my first winter with it, and I want to leave as many cacti in there for the winter as possible. Currently, I'm thinking just to be on the safe side, I should NOT leave the really small ones out there. I wish there were some way to predict just how cold it will get in there so I'll know how much insulation and of what type to install. It is made of single panel polycarb bolted onto an aluminum frame; the base is bolted onto a pressure-treated wood frame base which, in turn, is bolted into the cement slab. There is, however, some air space between the wood frame and cement due to the irregularities in the cement surface. Although this space can't be seen, I know it's not a tight fit since rain seeps in after a heavy shower or a storm. I'm supplying photos of the interior of the GH to show that there aren't many ways to attach any kind of bubble wrap sheets or anything else to the inside. Any suggestions for winterizing this GH, short of a major reconstruction of the interior with bars, hooks, etc.? Should I try to seal the wood to the cement (silicone caulk?) to avoid ice forming on the floor of the GH?
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cactushobbyman
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Re: Winter (ugh!) is coming

Post by cactushobbyman »

:oops: One thought, drill small holes in your flat stock and string thin 22 or small gauge wire to hold your bubble wrap. This is like the way you hold your insulation under a house with a wood foundation. You can wrap the wire if your worried about it cutting into something with foam pipe wrap. You might use cloths pins to hold the bubble wrap on the angle iron. If nothing else, duct tape or the metal/foil tape. Then again, it may get too cold for the tape to work. :D
fanaticactus
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Re: Winter (ugh!) is coming

Post by fanaticactus »

cactushobbyman wrote::oops: One thought, drill small holes in your flat stock and string thin 22 or small gauge wire to hold your bubble wrap. This is like the way you hold your insulation under a house with a wood foundation. You can wrap the wire if your worried about it cutting into something with foam pipe wrap. You might use cloths pins to hold the bubble wrap on the angle iron. If nothing else, duct tape or the metal/foil tape. Then again, it may get too cold for the tape to work. :D
Thanks CHM. Seems like a possible solution. Funny that I had also thought of duct tape (it holds the world together, doesn't it??) but came to the same conclusion as you (about the cold). I'll see what other suggestions float in later.
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SnowFella
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Re: Winter (ugh!) is coming

Post by SnowFella »

I'd be alittle hesitant drilling holes in already thin aluminium, you never know if it could create stress points in the bars that leads to cracks.
2 thoughs here.
1: undo some of those nuts and fit eyelets/hooks under them, that way you can string steel wire from side to side to hang the bubblewrap from. Be easy to put up and take off come spring.
2: head out and buy a roll of velcro "tape", stick some to the frame in strategic spots and some to the bubblewrap. Same there, easy on and off whenever needed.
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Re: Winter (ugh!) is coming

Post by fanaticactus »

Is bubblewrap actually the most effective insulating material to use in a case like this? I mentioned it because I had seen it in several other Forum posts. Are there viable alternatives? If I go with bubblewrap, is one layer enough? Should I get the kind with the largest "bubbles" (being the largest "pockets" of air)?
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Re: Winter (ugh!) is coming

Post by daiv »

How cold do you feel safe going with it? It sounds like you are going to be OK with some freezing? I think Ralf's setup is probably going to be quite similar to yours and I know he uses bubble wrap. However, I really don't know what the difference in temperature is with and without. If he doesn't hit this thread, I think I'd call his attention to it in another post.
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Re: Winter (ugh!) is coming

Post by fanaticactus »

Will try that, Daiv. Thanks. It's hard for me to judge New England "cold", especially at the edge of the Lake in a broad valley (much different from a mountain valley). They say last winter was very mild (our entire new shed and GH were built in the supposedly coldest months); the winter before had brutal sub-zero cold snaps for days on end. To what extent the polycarb wall or the wall with one layer of bubblewrap will protect against any cold is a BIG UNKNOWN.
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Re: Winter (ugh!) is coming

Post by daiv »

See, I think the trouble will be more the swings in temp. I don't know if the freezing at night vs. warm days over and over will be good. Sun hits that thing and it will get warm even on cold days I think. So I don't really have any experience with that dynamic because I never let my plants see freezing. The overwinter indoors.
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CactusFanDan
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Re: Winter (ugh!) is coming

Post by CactusFanDan »

I would've thought that using bubblewrap would help to keep the average temperatures in the greenhouse higher overall, but it would also help to reduce the fluctuations in temperature in the greenhouse that much. I don't grow in a greenhouse myself, so I'm not much on advice, but from what I know about heat transfer, it should have that effect.
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fanaticactus
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Re: Winter (ugh!) is coming

Post by fanaticactus »

I am also thinking of installing a small space heater with thermostat set to go on at 40 degrees. Should that help or even eliminate the need for bubblewrap?
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Ralf
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Re: Winter (ugh!) is coming

Post by Ralf »

At first it's important to know how cold it will be in winter. Here at my place the temp can drop down to about -13F (-25°C).
The second fact is will it warm up during the day or is there a continuously freeze. If it warms up the temp inside the greenhous reacts similar. If there is a continuously freeze the temp into the greenhouse drop down more and more. This is basicly to consider. Anyway more insulation is better than less.

My greenhouse gets two layers of bubblewrap. One layer is outside and the second is inside. The pieces will stick together with Scotch Tape. Over the outer layer comes a additional plastic wrap. It protects the bubblewrap against dirt. Therefor I use special brackets.
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At the inside it will insulate at the same way, except the protection plastic wrap. Furthermore gets the walls up to about 3 ft a additional insulation of styrofoam. At the end the greenhouse looks like as one of Christo's artworks.
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In a couple weeks is the time to insulate the greenhouse again. I'll try to take some step by step pictures. :wink:
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fanaticactus
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Re: Winter (ugh!) is coming

Post by fanaticactus »

Hi, Ralf. This is a very helpful possibility. I had wondered about layers of bubblewrap and how to secure it. You've given me what seem to be workable ideas. The only thing I still worry about is securing the plastic wraps with scotch tape. Have you ever had a problem with strong winds, assuming your area has them? How does the tape hold? Today it is near 80F but there's a weather front moving in and we have gusty winds around 40 mph, even though there are no storms yet. I'm thinking that, since this is my first winter here to monitor the weather daily, I should bring most of them into the garage. This way, those cacti that need very cold weather to set blossoms for next Spring will have those conditions. I would be very interested in any photos you can post of your winterizing process. Thank you again for your kind offer.
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Ralf
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Re: Winter (ugh!) is coming

Post by Ralf »

The scotch tape I use is 2'' wide (5cm) so there isn't any problem to stick it together with the bubble wrap below. I use it only for the margins. The plastic wrap is also hold by the special brackets. You'll see it on the pictures which I'll take soon. Be patient for some weeks.
Untill now I haven't had any problems with strong wind.
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Re: Winter (ugh!) is coming

Post by daiv »

Ralf,
I am curious - what is the average temp inside your greenhouse in winter and what is the minimum maximum day/night temps?
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Re: Winter (ugh!) is coming

Post by fanaticactus »

No one has yet addressed the possibility of my putting a small heater on a thermostat in there. Would that eliminate the need for layers of insulation?
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