Curious about "Middle Cuts"

Plantcelot · Post by **Plantcelot** » Sat Oct 21, 2006 11:47 pm

I have seen some columnar cactus (for example, San Pedros/Saguaros) that are sold as “middle cuts” and they just need to be rooted.

I’m curious about this and wonder if they are sold in this way in order to keep them short and to speed branching and flowering at an earlier age. Is this the reason?

Franj · Post by **Franj** » Sun Oct 22, 2006 2:38 pm

Hi Plantcelot

Middle cuts are a way to increase the number of plants you can get from one cutting. Where a tip cutting once rooted represents only one plant a middle cut will sometimes produce 2 or 3 new branches that later can be taken as tip cuttings. It usually requires 2 seasons to get saleable plants but the output can be 2 to 3 times higher. An example of a middle cut is below. I accidently decapitated this Micranthocereus estevesii when repotting it but successfully rooted the tip. The stump produced 3 new offsets. So where there once was one cactus there are now 4.

Franj

iann · Post by **iann** » Sun Oct 22, 2006 2:43 pm

There is of course a strong commercial incentive to sell middle cuts. You can take a tall column and sell half a dozen cuttings instead of just one. There is no real advantage to the buyer, who is completely free to decapitate an "end cut" if branches are required, and keep the tip for yet another plant.

Plantcelot · Post by **Plantcelot** » Sun Oct 22, 2006 4:07 pm

Great explanations from both of you thanks!

I was wondering about this for a long time and was actually tempted to purchase a San Pedro like that.

Franj, I really like the way your Micranthocereus estevesii looks with the new offsets. I think I’ll will try to do that with one of my longer columnars and hopefully I will get some nice top branches.

Will it be a good idea to round the stump a little (like its done on grafting) in order to make the stump look a bit more natural and less flat-shaped?

faslimy · Post by **faslimy** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 1:27 am

I always prefer tip cuts for columnar plants but sometimes you take what you can get and in the long run it doesn't change much. Just make sure you plant them right way up

Plantcelot · Post by **Plantcelot** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 5:22 am

Thanks faslimy

neonj · Post by **neonj** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 9:16 pm

I've often wondered how many of the folks buying san pedro cuts from ebay are actually buying them in order to eat for the effects they can produce. Complete San Pedro plants and even the cuttings can go for quite a bit on ebay. With shipping, you can pay about $40 for a rooted foot and half plant. Insain.

Jeffrey

Plantcelot · Post by **Plantcelot** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 11:04 pm

I had no idea of this

No wonder they are soooo expensive, and I thought it was because they grew huge and were long-lived. Well, I can really say that I'm learning a lot in here!

I just did a google search with "San pedro cactus drug" (without the "") and I found a forum about, Peyote & San Pedro (mescaline cactus). They are certainly "into" cactus, but with other intentions. . .

Thanks Jeffrey, your info was quite interesting

iann · Post by **iann** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 9:25 am

I certainly wasn't a coincidence that the most expensive plants sold on UK eBay were consistently Lophophora, "we ship worldwide" no questions asked and always going to the USA (where L. williamsii is a banned substance). eBay has now decided the safe legal course for them is to ban any auction of Lophophoras.

There is a similar trade in "San Pedros". One obvious giveaway is that this cactus is the only one ever sold chopped up into small pieces. Another is that no cactus collector I have ever met calls them that

Plantcelot · Post by **Plantcelot** » Wed Oct 25, 2006 12:25 am

There is a similar trade in "San Pedros". One obvious giveaway is that this cactus is the only one ever sold chopped up into small pieces. Another is that no cactus collector I have ever met calls them that

Thanks iann very useful info

I have no intention of buying something that could get me in any trouble with the law, it is just not worth it. . . NO Echinopsis pachanoi for me!

Post by **daiv** » Wed Oct 25, 2006 12:32 am

As far as I know, there are no laws against E. pachanoi. I don't think it is infamous enough to be considered a problem.

peterb · Post by **peterb** » Wed Oct 25, 2006 12:38 am

Some comparative information on both pachanoi and peruvianus here:

http://www.erowid.org/plants/cacti/cacti_article1.shtml

peterb

Plantcelot · Post by **Plantcelot** » Wed Oct 25, 2006 7:08 am

daiv, I’m really not certain if it is actually against the law or not but I think it is better to prevent than to be sorry. It is just a personal thing, I just like playing it a little safe.

I just did a quick search on google about the law and SPs and found a lot of different disclaimers at places that sell seeds or other of these related cactus. A funny one that I found was:
“DISCLAIMER I : If you eat San Pedro cactus, you are breaking the law and can be put in maximum security prison for a long long time with no hope of parole. How would you like to have to answer your cell mate with "I'm in here because they caught me with a cactus in my mouth."

But, I also found a very interesting link as well:
Criminalizing Nature and Knowledge

peterb your link was very interesting, I like to collect blue columnars and one of the things that caught my attention was the taxonomy confusion concerning the T. peruvianus. They say that there are many distinct species being circulated as T. peruvianus and I read somewhere else that they are commonly named “Blue Torch”. I have several blue C. Peruvianus that are called blue torch as well... I checked for images of the Cereous peruvianus and most of them look green, then I checked the T. peruvianus and somehow those pictures look familiar. All of my cactus are fairly inexpensive so I guess I’m on the safe side, but still I will have to do some comparison search between them when I have the time.

Thanks to both for the info

iann · Post by **iann** » Thu Oct 26, 2006 1:08 pm

All the Trichocereus species contain the alkaloid Mescaline in varying quantities. Mescaline is Class A in the UK (same as heroin), Schedule I in the US, and similarly highly illegal in most western countries. Trichocereus parts clearly not for cultivation could be considered illegal, and have been siezed by US customs. They are of course covered legally since Trichocereus live or dead are illegal to import without a CITES permit

Unlike Lophophora williamsii which is illegal to posess in any form for any purpose in the US, Trichocereus may be cultivated provided it isn't for consumption. The UK has no such laws restricting the cultivation of any cactus. France has recently introduced a law heavily restricting the posession of Lophophora plants but not any other cactus species.

I grow a couple of Trichocereus plants. I believe they may be T. pachanoi and T. bridgesii but other names have been suggested so who knows

Curious about "Middle Cuts"

Curious about "Middle Cuts"

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