Degrafting

All about grafting. How-to information, progress reports, show of your results.
alex2center
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Re: Degrafting

Post by alex2center »

Hanazono wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 9:13 pm I did not have so much work in relation to cacti in this season but I did some degraftings.
The attached photo is degrafted Ariocarpus, which was done in this season.
9 fissuratus cv godzilla and 2 scaphirostris are in 9 cm square pots.
Hi! May I ask you, I have A.Retusus grafted on some Echinopsis. I have bought this plant recently. Scion have 8 cm size. Echinopsis have had some side shoots, but I remove them because they was already separated and with own roots in soil. Seller tell me that plant is 8-10 years age.

The stock is already fully lignified, has no green surface, is firm, but still large, about 5 cm, with well-developed roots. Since I received the plant without soil, I transplanted it into a very well-drained mineral substrate, and I decided to cover the Echinopsis and even contact line 1-1.5 cm above. Do you think Retusus will be able to break through the stock and grow its own roots over time? Or should I still remove scion completely? I don't want Retusus to stress when fully degrafted and at the same time I'm afraid that at some moment of time Echinopsis will just rot and I just won't see it in time under the soil. I read that you use the short Pereskiopsis method, but does the same method work for Echinopsis? Echinopsis is significantly larger and woody and have larger contact square, but usually sitting not so deep in scion.

Anyway, I need wait to spring if need full degrafting. I wouldn`t degraft Retusus at all if it possible, as long as plant filling well. You have degrafted many Ariocarpus scions, can you confirm that Ariocarpus don`t grow tap root over the years? Will Retusus grow more flat after rooting or rooting doesn`t change its form cause taproot doesn`t appear anyway? And will Ariocarpus grow faster or slower after degrafting from Echinopsis and rooting? Thx!

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Hanazono
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Re: Degrafting

Post by Hanazono »

G'morning alex2center,
Do you think Retusus will be able to break through the stock and grow its own roots over time? Or should I still remove scion completely?
No it does not grow own roots when an Echinopsis was attached, which is a parmanent stock.
You are not necessary to remove the scion. Since echinopsis is a parmanent stock, it can survive long time with woody structure.

I read that you use the short Pereskiopsis method, but does the same method work for Echinopsis
No it does not. Echinopsis is a parmanent stock and Pereskiopsis is not a parmanent stock.
I also use Echinopsis as a grafting stock. Woody stock can survive long time.
You can remove the scion from stock anytime when you want anyway.
Will Retusus grow more flat after rooting or rooting doesn`t change its form cause taproot doesn`t appear anyway? And will Ariocarpus grow faster or slower after degrafting from Echinopsis and rooting?
I think ariocarpus after rooting will not change the form. Old ariocarpus can not gain the diameter but it can be taller.
The growing speed of degrafted ariocarpus will return to normal speed which is slower than grafted one.

Frank
alex2center
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Re: Degrafting

Post by alex2center »

Hanazono wrote: Wed Aug 31, 2022 10:08 pm I think ariocarpus after rooting will not change the form.
Thx a lot, Frank! Is woody Echinopsis hidden in soil is OK in terms of a long time? I mean, is it OK that I hide it completely.

And what about tap roots? I read your experience that you got only thin roots of Ariocarpus after degrafting, but have had you some cases when tap root has appeared? I have read some comments from people that tap root can appear and we must be careful when buying Ario paying attention to the details of the root when buying (degrafted Ario root will have many notches instead of one powerful smooth tap). Maybe it is not true, I am interested in your experince only.

Also sorry if my english is not so well.
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Hanazono
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Re: Degrafting

Post by Hanazono »

G'morning alex2center,
And what about tap roots? I read your experience that you got only thin roots of Ariocarpus after degrafting, but have had you some cases when tap root has appeared?
Tap root does not regrow. Multiple thick roots will be developed on a degrafted Ariocarpus. You can judge easily the Ariocarpus comes from degrafting or seedling by the appearence of roots.

Note,
Some Japanes cut tap root of Ariocarpus when seedlings are 3 years old. They are seedlings with thick multiple roots.

Frank
Pd1973
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Re: Degrafting

Post by Pd1973 »

Hanazono wrote: Thu Sep 01, 2022 9:32 pm G'morning alex2center,
And what about tap roots? I read your experience that you got only thin roots of Ariocarpus after degrafting, but have had you some cases when tap root has appeared?
Tap root does not regrow. Multiple thick roots will be developed on a degrafted Ariocarpus. You can judge easily the Ariocarpus comes from degrafting or seedling by the appearence of roots.

Note,
Some Japanes cut tap root of Ariocarpus when seedlings are 3 years old. They are seedlings with thick multiple roots.

Frank
Can you be more specific about the types of cacti that will not develop a tap root?
I know for lophohora that they will develop a tap root from my own experience. (lophochors were grafted onto perioskopsis (for about a year), then I removed them, because I didn't like the unnatural growth (they grew about 4 times bigger compared to cacti that were not grafted, they were transplanted this year and have a very nicely developed ap root).Now Lophohora look as if they were never grafted.
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Hanazono
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Re: Degrafting

Post by Hanazono »

G'morning Pd1973,
Can you be more specific about the types of cacti that will not develop a tap root?
I do not have so much experience but:

I do not grafte Astrophytum asterias but I cut tap roots when seedlings were 2 years old.
Standard asterias: do not regrow tap roots, multiple thick roots regrow
Cultivar asterias: do not regrow tap roots, many fine roots regrow
Other Astrophytum species: do not regrow tap roots, many fine roots regrow

Ariocarpus species: do not regrow tap roots, multiple thick roots regrow

Frank
alex2center
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Re: Degrafting

Post by alex2center »

Hanazono wrote: Fri Sep 02, 2022 9:18 pm G'morning Pd1973,

Ariocarpus species: do not regrow tap roots, multiple thick roots regrow

Frank
Hi, Frank!

Thx for sharing your experience.

Can you say, theoretically, Ario seedling from rooted tubercle will make tap root or many multiple thick roots?
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Hanazono
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Re: Degrafting

Post by Hanazono »

G'morning alex2center,
Can you say, theoretically, Ario seedling from rooted tubercle will make tap root or many multiple thick roots?
Yes multiple thick roots are made.

I rooted several Ariocarpus retusus tubercles. The rooting had no issues and formed roots on tubercles.
To make an Ariocarpus plant, you need an off-set. A tubercle does never turn to a plant.
Rooted tubercles survived several yeras but they could not form any off-sets unfortunately.

If you could make an off-set from rooted tubercle, the off-set can form multiple roots.

Frank
alex2center
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Re: Degrafting

Post by alex2center »

https://youtu.be/R8Kz_4jwWRE?t=1157

Here in this video Tony Marino say that he have new plant from tubercle. Maybe it is possible.
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Hanazono
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Re: Degrafting

Post by Hanazono »

alex2center,
Ario seedling from rooted tubercle will make tap root or many multiple thick roots?
I could not see any rooted Ariocarpus tubercles on Tony's video.

It is possible to make a new cactus from a tubercle but it is not from a rooted tubercle. It is from a grafted tubercle.
A grafted tubercle can form off-sets and you can root the off-sets which will grow as a normal cactus.

I have not experienced Aricarpus tubercle but I made various Mammilaria species from tubercle grafting.

Frank
chayanat
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Re: Degrafting

Post by chayanat »

I'd like to report back as I follow your both grafting and degrafting method (it's been a year already)

Both methods work really well for me on a Lophophora (I use crushed akadama substitute for cat litter on the rooting stage)

Thank you very much Frank! :D
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Hanazono
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Re: Degrafting

Post by Hanazono »

I degrafted 12 scions in this morning. They all are 2 years after grafted.
Since the growing speed of scions were not so high, I decided to keep short stocks.

1. Before degrafting, lost all leaves of stocks
7 of Ariocarpus hybrid seedlings, fissuratus cv Godzilla x furfuraceus cv Suguri cauliflower
3 of Ariocarpus seedlings, fissuratus cv Godzilla
1 of Geohintonia mexcana off-set
1 of Rimacactus lauii off-set

2. After degrafted to set in pots for rooting, pots are 8.5 cm square
Attachments
Before degrafting
Before degrafting
IMG_2331 - Copy.JPG (152.17 KiB) Viewed 2975 times
After degrafted
After degrafted
IMG_2332 - Copy.JPG (120.91 KiB) Viewed 2975 times
cacthis
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Re: Degrafting

Post by cacthis »

You are very good at this! I myself killed so many plants while trying to degraft :? .
If maybe you can help me:

1. with the short vacular bundle method, there is open wound in the contact area between scion and stock. Won't this open wound cause rot if the whole thing is put on wet medium right away? Do you sterilize the medium?

2. In complete degrafting method (suppose to remove all part of the stock including the vascular bundle), what will happen if there is some vascular bundle left in the scion? Will the scion still root?

3. Your advice about degrafting crested species? Especially those that have "fan" shape.
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Hanazono
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Re: Degrafting

Post by Hanazono »

G'morning cacthis,
1. with the short vacular bundle method, there is open wound in the contact area between scion and stock. Won't this open wound cause rot if the whole thing is put on wet medium right away? Do you sterilize the medium?
I do not degraft if there is a open wound on the bottom of scion. I will waite until healing the wound.
A open wound will be cause of rotting. I do not sterilize the medium.
2. In complete degrafting method (suppose to remove all part of the stock including the vascular bundle), what will happen if there is some vascular bundle left in the scion? Will the scion still root?
The remained vascular bandle of stock will be cause rotting. The scion will not root if the vascular bandle of the stock was remained.
3. Your advice about degrafting crested species? Especially those that have "fan" shape.
You can do a normal degrafting if the fan shape was less than 180 degree.
Cactus grows continuously after degrafted. If the fan shape reached more than 180 degree, the edge of fan will contact potting-mix.
The contact point will be a trigger of rotting.
I lost a crested myriostigma by the above reason.

Frank
cacthis
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Re: Degrafting

Post by cacthis »

Thanks Frank!
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