Over-wintering fluorescent setup and questions/help

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samreu
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Over-wintering fluorescent setup and questions/help

Post by samreu »

Well I decided to move my cactus to a cooler area in my home for overwintering, trying for cooler temps and some artificial lighting to compensate for the poor light I get over winter in my home.
I live in Ottawa, Canada. Starting now we receive a lot of fall-type days, cloudy and sombre. During the winter, a little more light bu low in the sky and very short days.
My home heats with gas, central furnace forced-air and we keep it at 72F or 22C and it is very dry due to the heating. I also dehumidify in the winter to keep my many windows clear of condensation.
I can keep the temps in my unfinished basement with the heat ducts turned off in the back section probably around 64-65F or 17-18C.
I decided to try overwintering my cactus in the cooler basement and supplement with fluorescent lights - purchased a 6 tube x 54W T5HO setup, which I have now finalized setting up with a stand - pics attached.
I made the stand with some wood remnants I had, once I saw on-line what they wanted for junk!! Mine isn't a show piece but I think I have covered all the bases.
Pic 1 - side view of the stand. Size is about 48" long by 24 wide. The inside bottom is lined with hardboard painted white. On the outside board, you can see 4 pieces of black velcro. I have velcro'd side walls made out of hardboard, painted white on the inside to reflect the light. If I want to do anything inside the unit, the panels come off easily.
Pic 2 - you can see an end view with the one side wall attached with the velcro on the left side.
Pic 3 - one of the side walls with the velcro attached. All the velcro in 2" width cost $12 for the entire build and I have lots left.
Pic 4 - looking from the end, you can see the 2 side walls in place - I also have pieces for the ends as well.
I'm kind of happy the way it turned out and it gave me something to do on a dreary weekend.
Now my questions so I can make this work the best for my plants.
Plants - mammilaria camptotricha, pringlei, celsianna
- oreocerus trolli
- astrophytums - super kaboto and onzuka
- parodia magnifica
- echinopsis subdenudatum, oxygona
- gymnocalycium horsti, monvillei
- clesito straussi
- cereus forbesi, stenocereus
- pleiospilos nelii

Q1 - I am unsure as to what lighting schedule I should follow?? I have read that I should follow current light times - so should that mean lights on from 7 am - 5 pm with longer nights, getting longer lighting as we move into February/March where the days are lengthening????

Q2 - Do all the plants need to be at the same height from the lights or will the white reflective walls take care of that?

Q3 - what height have you been successful with if using fluorescents?? 6" from the plants a good distance??

Q4 - What about watering - I'm not looking for a plant-by-plant overview, but are there any exceptions to a once a month light watering? I was planning on keeping the astros and pleiospilos dry until spring. The pleiospilos has been dry since June and has absorbed its outer leaves as of early September - I was going to give it a light water/spray in the next week or so before putting it to bed.

Thanks for any feedback you may provide.
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esp_imaging
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Re: Over-wintering fluorescent setup and questions/help

Post by esp_imaging »

I think there is often a bit of trial and error with this type of set up, and no single right answer. I also use suspended chains and hooks, they seem a good secure method to adjust lighting height.

These temperatures are good growing temperatures for many species : 64-65F or 17-18C - certainly a bit warm for dormancy. Hence a good amount of light will be needed. Are night temperatures rather lower? I'd expect flourescents to add detectable further heating.

10 hours seems a sensible day length - probably no big deal changing with the season. I'd guess managing light intensity and duration and resulting growth and hopefully no etiolation is as important as matching your local day length.

The reflective walls will even out the lighting at the edges of your set up, but will make little differrnce in the centre. Maybe lower the chains at one end, so it's closer to all your short plants at one end, then have all your taller plants are at the other end under a more raised end of the light rig.

If you are watering over the winter (and I guess you will if your temps stated are typical averages), ventilation may ben issue to watch - creating a hot, warm box with no air circulation may be unhealthy.
A small diverse collection of Cacti & Succulents
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greenknight
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Re: Over-wintering fluorescent setup and questions/help

Post by greenknight »

Why not put that on the floor? That's where it's coolest.
Spence :mrgreen:
samreu
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Re: Over-wintering fluorescent setup and questions/help

Post by samreu »

Thanks esp, yes I will have to water, temps not cool enough for dormancy. I've never shut the heat down totally in that area so I'll see how the temps do. Greenknight, good idea to move it to the floor. Esp, I think there is quite a bit of open area for heat escape , I'm going to pop in a thermometer and check out the heat generation.
cosmotoad
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Re: Over-wintering fluorescent setup and questions/help

Post by cosmotoad »

Your setup looks great, from your description I was expecting something thrown together with duct tape but it's a lot more presentable than that. I'm also in Canada and experimenting with indoor lighting, although I'm on the west coast where the climate is quite a bit milder. Fluorescent lights run cool so you can keep them very close to the plants, almost touching them, so see how they respond to the intensity and adjust accordingly. I've got a lot of the same plants as you, maybe you ordered from Valley Succulents here in BC? I just got a cleistocactus strausii and an astrophytum onzuka quadricostatum from them recently.

Anyway good luck with your indoor growing! This is my first year running a real indoor light setup so I can't give you much advice, I'm still learning.
samreu
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Re: Over-wintering fluorescent setup and questions/help

Post by samreu »

cosmo, yes i did get some stuff from jamie @ VS, as well as locally that were brought in from Altman in the US.

Update on the setup - I have to say I am shocked and now concerned - I put a digital thermometer under the lights, set up at 14" in height - from my room temperature @ 66F or 19C the temp rises to 84F or 29C ??? However, it also dropped humidity from about 45% to 30% - give or take the +/- on my unit - relative I guess as the differential is the more important.
I never expected that much of a difference to be honest - again, I am using an Agrobrite 6 tube, 54W @ 324W total.
This setup as it is would have my plants in a warmer condition than I have in the summer months in my home - we usually have the central air at a reasonable 76-77 F or 25C - that's comfortable for us as it keeps the humidity down and doesn't make the house an ice box.
I was hoping to have high light with some lower temps over the winter, with reduced watering - to address my poor light conditions here in winter. Now I'm stumped.
Do I contend with lower light and keep them in their upstairs/main living area windows where they will be cooler as winter heat upstairs in the living quarters is 21-22C.
I am going to try a few mods like raising the lights a little further to see the effect, as well as putting a small fan on?
Maybe instead of over-wintering mature plants I'd be better with trying my hand at seedlings with this setup.
Experimentation, huh.

I am an ex fishkeeping guy for 25+ years (exited the hobby last year) and used lots of lighting on large aquaria - fluorescent T5HO, eventually to all LED's. Lights were usually 12 inches above the water surface to maximize penetration to the bottom of the tank, however, with water if you got a small spike in temps from heat dissipation, it meant you saved on heating the water as many tropicals I kept needed 80-82F - I was typically heating that with 600W of heaters, per aquarium - got expensive, quick. You could feel the heat from fluorescents but I never expected that much as above - although I did have glass covering the top of the aquariums so that probably absorbed quite a bit of heat, as well. Maybe glass under the fluorescent would dissipate some of the heat??, easy enough to do. LED's, ran very cool in comparison, however, were used for their low power usage and ability to use dimmers for effect.
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7george
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Re: Over-wintering fluorescent setup and questions/help

Post by 7george »

Well, it's a challenge to keep plants dormant winter time in Canada. For many plants taken indoors from my deck temps get higher but I try to stop those growing.

With these lights situated so close and temps rising up you would rather try to keep them growing and active the whole winter. If you cannot provide some outside light from an window maybe better put less lamps or place'em mach away, like a meter off the plants. Your plants are quite different and you should expect different reaction to this setting. Mammillaria and Astrophytum (also Gymnocalycium & Oreocerus trolli) are not likely to start growing if kept cool at about 15 - 20 C that are winter temps in Mexico. I wouldn't water any of these unless I wanted them to grow. Roots will be fine, thin ones may dry out but this happens in nature during dry periods too. For me all that setup is quite strange but maybe because of high house temps you keep there.

I can not sleep well in warm conditions so I put my thermostat to 16 C for the night. Along windowsills where my plants are kept now is getting even cooler and this (lower night temps) prevent them all from growing when light is sufficient. Some bigger pots that stay in the middle of a hallway with less light and higher temps are problematic and I try to keep them dry to prevent any ugly growth. But day temps there don't exceed 21 - 22 C so it is almost manageable. 8)
If your cacti mess in your job just forget about the job.
°C = (°F - 32)/1.8
esp_imaging
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Re: Over-wintering fluorescent setup and questions/help

Post by esp_imaging »

7george wrote: Mon Oct 08, 2018 3:49 pm Mammillaria and Astrophytum (also Gymnocalycium & Oreocerus trolli) are not likely to start growing if kept cool at about 15 - 20 C that are winter temps in Mexico. I wouldn't water any of these unless I wanted them to grow. Roots will be fine, thin ones may dry out but this happens in nature during dry periods too.
Many Mexican winter temperatures will be far lower than these, at night anyway. Frost are not uncommon inland in central Mexico.
Check out some averages and frost days for Queretaro city, for example, as a possible "cactus habitat" climate:https://www.meteoblue.com/en/weather/fo ... co_3991164

Many of the species samreu lists will come from places with quite cold minimum temperatures, a high altitude species like Oreocereus trollii would find night mimima of 15deg C very warm.

It would be good to understand in more detail the factors triggering dormancy - low overnight temps, or average temps etc, but a common feature of "desert" cacti habitats is a big temperature difference between daytime maxima and overnight minima.
A small diverse collection of Cacti & Succulents
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samreu
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Re: Over-wintering fluorescent setup and questions/help

Post by samreu »

Hey 7george,
Ah, yes - Calgary - where I was on business last week unfortunately with the 25-30cm of snow you had.... :roll:
You are fortunate in Calgary with the terrific amount of sun you have there, one of the highest in sunny days in Canada - plus, the dryness compared to eastern canada. I'm with you on keeping the plants on the dry side, especially the ones noted. I'd rather not have to have some artificial light setup, believe me. Especially with electricity rates in Ontario that are the most expensive in Canada - about 75% more than what they are in Alberta. Compared to what it used to cost me to heat/light 3 large 6 foot x 2.5 foot aquariums, peanuts. Hobbies !

Well I have tried a couple different scenarios with the lights at their current 14" height.
Basement temp - 66F / 19C

6 tubes ON - 87F / 30C
6 tubes with fan at one end - 76F / 24C
Drops substantially.

4 tubes ON (2 center tubes off) - 82F / 28C
4 tubes with fan at one end - 73F / 23C

6 tubes will supposedly give me 30,000 lumens (on paper)
4 tubes - 20,000 lumens
Spaces is 8 sq ft so from what I've read, it seems 2-3000/SqFt is OK

If I run the 6 tubes with the fan, I'll have the plants at 76F/24C during the day for 10 hours, then drop to 66F/19C at night with the fan and lights off - seems like a good cool down period/time??
The basement may even get a little cooler once the below zero weather parks itself here for December through March

I will also will try the lights 4-6"+ higher or so to try and keep away from using a fan to cool and possibly negate the increase and keep close to the room temp @ 66/19 -
Q - don't know if a large fan blowing on the plants all the time is a great idea even if it's on low, maybe too much of a drying effect?.
No matter what I choose to do, I'm going to leave some guinea pigs upstairs with the window light (low light, low-sky position sun maybe 3-4 hours max, when shining) and my 69F/20.5C (corrected) living quarter temps.

Thanks for following and providing some feedback.
cosmotoad
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Re: Over-wintering fluorescent setup and questions/help

Post by cosmotoad »

I didn't think the fluorescents would get that warm but I guess you've got quite a bit of power there. I'm mainly running LED lights which run very cool, but I also have some under a 250w metal halide which is plenty of light but generates a whole lot of heat. I've also got some guinea pig type situations, I've got some lithops and a t. peruvianus under the MH which I'll try to just keep in full growth mode all winter. I think running a fan most of the time wouldn't cause much harm, dryness isn't a big issue for most cacti (some melocactus and jungle cacti may not like it though). The ones you have receiving only window light should survive but will probably stretch a little at that temperature, so keep an eye out for that. Sounds like you're probably more knowledgeable than me when it comes to lighting though, so don't take anything I say too seriously.
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J-M
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Re: Over-wintering fluorescent setup and questions/help

Post by J-M »

Hello samreu,

2 years ago I was living in a small basement apartment and had no choice but to put all the cacti on a windowsill come winter. I had a double T5 fixture 6 inches above them and a baseboard heater, that I could not turn off, just below the window so it was always 22-23 C during the day and close to 20 at night. I watered only lightly once per month from october to april and they made it without any etiolation, but on the long term I don't think it is the best case scenario ...

For the fan take a look at the small AC Infinity fan on Amazon.ca. Around 20 $ Cad and they move the air just enough for your needs. A 12 inch fan on low is already way too much in my opinion !

But maybe I can give you another idea for over wintering your cacti. Take a look at the picture. In the basement I made a box that fits in a north facing window, no light, no water, no heater I just put my cacti inside for the winter (5-6 months) Temperature is around 10-14 Celsius on warmer days, in the heart of winter here in Zone 4b Quebec city it is between 5-8 Celsius. Echinocereus, Rebutia, Echinopsis that never bloomed before now do so when they finally feel the sun in spring !
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samreu
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Re: Over-wintering fluorescent setup and questions/help

Post by samreu »

Salut j-m, thanks for the fan reference, ordered one today to give it a try - i'll try it in a few different positions - it's small enough to do that. I like your window idea, but I don't think it will work for me I'm afraid - my 2 basement windows get sun, 1 for a couple of hours, the other about 4 hours in the short days - as per my large windows upstairs. Might be too much in an enclosed box, I don't really know - but I am going to look at it closer and maybe try it out without the plants and see what comes up - most digital themometers today have a "save hi/lo readings" which would tell me all I need to know. The swings might be too much with the sun factored in but I really like the idea and your experience with flowering says it achieves the right balance for the plants.
cosmotoad
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Re: Over-wintering fluorescent setup and questions/help

Post by cosmotoad »

Seems like there's a lot of Canadians around here recently, it's funny how a lot of members live in the last place cacti would really want to be. I may try one of those AC infinity fans some time, seems like it would be just right for a couple of my grow rooms.
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J-M
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Re: Over-wintering fluorescent setup and questions/help

Post by J-M »

Yes everybody I know think it is weird to collect and grow cacti here. You have to think and improvise a little bit, not always as simple as if we were living in a sunny and dry USDA zone 9 area ...

Let us know what you think about the fan.

Also I forgot to answer your Q1 in my previous post. What you said is exactly what I was doing i.e. lights on from 7 am - 5 pm, getting longer lighting as we move into February/March where the days are lengthening
cosmotoad
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Re: Over-wintering fluorescent setup and questions/help

Post by cosmotoad »

I probably won't get any of the fans for a while, September was quite heavy on the spending for lights, timers, thermometers, hygrometers, seeds, plants, etc. so I'm trying to be very frugal in October. But when I've got the luxury of spending some money I'll come back to this thread and check it out again.
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