About the requests for ID, again. We need to consider moderating

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mmcavall
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About the requests for ID, again. We need to consider moderating

Post by mmcavall »

At first I was not annoyed by the several requests for ID that came from new members. I believed that as it is a free forum, you could choose to help identifying or just ignore, with no consequences.
But more recently I became aware of the problems caused by this, and today things went really bad and annoying.
Now I see clearly that:
1. The way things are going, we are kind of competing for attention here (the "Here, guys" made it clear) and your post risk to be forgotten unseen, because the overload of new ID requests "bump down" your thread.
Last week I asked for an ID of a single plant with good pictures of the flowers and I had zero answers. Today a member posted lots of threads with lots of plants to identify in each one, and received answers for all he/she asked for. So what is happening?
(Why did I had zero answers and he/she had all the attention? Probably because my thread disappeared too fast from the front page).

2. Good contributors can be upset and leave the forum, which would be really bad.

In brief, I think it must be moderated.
My proposition:
Every member has the right and the limit to post only one thread in the ID section per day. And this thread can contain a maximum of 3 plants to ID. Anything above this will be deleted with a "please see the rules" message.
Anyone really interested in the hobby will manage to wait until the following day to ask for more IDs.

This would fix the things, I think, without having to discriminate new members or forcing people to take part in other sections.

I offer myself to moderate this section, if needed.
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Aiko
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Re: About the requests for ID, again. We need to consider moderating

Post by Aiko »

I always check new messages via the 'Unread posts' link. And I don't think I am far off thinking about half of the new threads are for identification requests. And in many cases these are from new members not sticking around long. Occasionally also older members with some history, but very often a history almost always filled with only identification requests. As the particular forum member you are referring to.

This makes me skip the entire 'Unread posts' list quite fast. I quickly look at key words in the title, and if I don't find anything that quickly appeals to me I hit the 'Mark all read' link and wait for better times with more interesting posts for me to read. Chances are I will also skip identification request of contributing forum members, like you Mmcavall, who I am happy to help out. Your thread on "Mammillaria karwinskiana subsp. nejapensis" I did see as it's name stands out and clearly as it is specifically named and would not be a regular identification request, but I was not able to help out. Iit certainly is a nice plant, so I can understand it is a favourite for you.

I notice I don't really bother much anymore with threads that might still be interesting to read, but lack a decent description. A thread titled 'Mammillaria' could be a thread someone showing beautiful Mammillarias, I certainly don't mind seeing. But more likely it is someone asking for yet another identification of some "ordinary" Mammillaria from a local garden centre. I just don't botter opening these up anymore to find out, likely missing out on something interesting every now and then.

I do support your idea to limit identification requests. But as some others have introduced, I personally would put the bar higher and limit any identification request before a certain amount of posts (say, 10) has been made. I see this as an investment of time and just a little bit of effort to see who really wants the identification request.
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greenknight
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Re: About the requests for ID, again. We need to consider moderating

Post by greenknight »

I just use the "new posts" link, which only shows the posts that have been added since my last visit, just keep that open while I view the ones I want to see in new tabs. There usually are not too many new posts since I drop by daily.
Spence :mrgreen:
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spok
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Re: About the requests for ID, again. We need to consider moderating

Post by spok »

Hi, mmcavall. Regarding your id request, I saw it but I didn't want to give a faulse answer. It seemed correct. I find it annoying too, when there are so many request for plant ids in a single post from a member who doesn't contribute anything in the forum.
I wanted to ask for ids too, but I fear I would get ignored between all those other posts.
DaveW
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Re: About the requests for ID, again. We need to consider moderating

Post by DaveW »

I agree that long lists of pictures of plants for identification can be a disincentive to identification. I said a year or so ago that if too long the viewer has forgotten what the first one was before they get to the end and needs to keep scrolling up and down, which is a turnoff. Therefore it is a good idea to keep it to around three or four different plants per post. Obviously that does not stop you posting a couple of views of the same plant to aid identification. But keep the post relatively short or people get tired and just don't bother.

I remember I looked up how long a slide should be on screen in a lecture before people got bored with it and wanted to move on to the next one. Apparently we humans have the attention span of a goldfish and want to move to the next image fairly quickly, rather than just hearing the speaker rattle on without anything changing on screen.

https://www.themobilepresenter.com/arti ... ntion-span

Therefore a lot of images to identify at once simply means most people switch off and don't bother, or as Aiko says move on to something they find more interesting. It is different with things like travelogues or views of plants in your collection where the images are read one after another like pages of a book, therefore you do not need to scroll backwards and forwards and the viewers interest is maintained, as with a lecture. But the same does not apply to identification images where too many at once can be a turn off for the very viewers you want to identify them for you and so be counter productive.

However we were all beginners ourselves once so should not be too antagonistic to new Forum members who at first post too many. Just tell them they will have a better chance of getting them identified if they just post 3-4 at once, either that of find a goldfish with a longer attention span than mine to identify a much longer list. :D
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mmcavall
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Re: About the requests for ID, again. We need to consider moderating

Post by mmcavall »

Thanks all for replying and please do not apologize for not identifying my plant. That's not the point, it was just an example. But thanks for the kind words.

I do still thinking that simple rules are necessary. Again: the rules would be applied to all members, so we wouldn't discriminate the new ones.

There are other rules in the forum. Particularly I am annoyed with the prohibition of talk about ev0lution. I know a very experienced grower, which was very collaborative here, that left the forum because of that.

Moderate the ID requests to a single thread per member per day, with maximum 3 plants, wouldn't really do any harm (or do you guys think that there can be undesirable effects? What would it be?)
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Aiko
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Re: About the requests for ID, again. We need to consider moderating

Post by Aiko »

mmcavall wrote: Fri Mar 29, 2019 12:30 pm Moderate the ID requests to a single thread per member per day, with maximum 3 plants, wouldn't really do any harm (or do you guys think that there can be undesirable effects? What would it be?)
Theoretically this could still add up to 1000+ plants to identify, spread out over 365 thread per year. That would not be a bar for anyone to cross, even if they would try

One thread with a request per month would be a better idea. And then I don't even mind if you ask for 1000 plants in that one thread in one go.
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tumamoc
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Re: About the requests for ID, again. We need to consider moderating

Post by tumamoc »

Aiko wrote: Fri Mar 29, 2019 5:05 pm
mmcavall wrote: Fri Mar 29, 2019 12:30 pm Moderate the ID requests to a single thread per member per day, with maximum 3 plants, wouldn't really do any harm (or do you guys think that there can be undesirable effects? What would it be?)
Theoretically this could still add up to 1000+ plants to identify, spread out over 365 thread per year. That would not be a bar for anyone to cross, even if they would try

One thread with a request per month would be a better idea. And then I don't even mind if you ask for 1000 plants in that one thread in one go.
I usually don't mind seeing requests for IDs, but I agree, the ones put up Wednesday and Thursday were pretty irritating, and pushy. I guess there are no easy solutions. I think both of these suggestions are a good start.
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hegar
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Re: About the requests for ID, again. We need to consider moderating

Post by hegar »

I am one of the people, who has asked for his share of cactus identification requests. It is part of my job to try to identify cacti, orchids, agaves, etc., which may be covered by the CITES regulations. My identification skills - although better than those of most of my coworkers - are not stellar in any way. So I have been asking forum members for assistance. Most of the time I do recognize the genus, but have absolutely no idea about the species.
I have never experienced any unwillingness by a forum member to help me out. Lately - because not that many cacti have been moved from Mexico into El Paso and the surrounding border crossing points - I have not placed many identification requests here.
Although I do understand the enthusiasm of some new forum members to have all their plants identified all at once, it may not be a bad idea to let these folks know, that they should submit no more than perhaps 3 ID requests per day or week. This is some kind of routine work and not as urgent, than taking care of cacti, which are either being attacked by insects/mites/snails, etc. or succumbing to a disease. I do hold back at times, if I do not have any good idea about what the problem is, but then relent and tell the person inquiring about a pathogen or bug problem, that I cannot give a good answer. That at least makes the forum member feel, that her/his post was read and someone actually thought about helping.

Well, Aiko, I do not quite understand, why you want to link the number of ID requests to the number of postings, which the forum member made.
A new member usually does not have the knowledge to post much more than to tell us how many cacti she/he does have in her/his collection.
We all learn through experience, i.e. success and failure and hopefully can increase our success rate by asking experienced growers. However, the grower needs to know the name of a cactus, in order to find out more about it in books or on-line. I for one have only had positive experiences with those forum members who responded to my ID requests, and that is one reason why I have been a member since the beginning of 2006. I also feel, that I do have the duty to contribute something myself, be it with giving my input about cactus pests and diseases presented here in the forum or only welcoming a new forum member.

Harald
DaveW
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Re: About the requests for ID, again. We need to consider moderating

Post by DaveW »

It is hard when you first start collecting, particularly as classifications have changed over the years. I started collecting in about 1958 and joined the then British Cactus Society in 1961, Having people at a branch meeting who could see the plant and identify it for me was a big help.

Also in the days before the Internet we all had to learn to read and bought a beginners book on the plants to help identify them, acquiring more and more scientific texts as we progressed. I must now have a couple of thousand cactus books and journals since I never learnt to stop buying books or joining cactus societies and only use the internet. Anyway when it comes to the more difficult identifications you still need to learn how to read a botanical description and also need books with them in, or at least trace them on the Internet.

My advantage over a beginner is having come through most of the classifications over the years I can search for plants on the Internet under many of the names they previously had, so if I can't find it under one genus I can usually find it under another.

Being my hobby I usually carry a lot of that useless information in my head still, though I probably now forget what day of the week it is and what I came upstairs for, known as short term memory loss with old age!

It is still easier for me to identify many plants if they are in front of me, rather than a picture on the Forum. There is often no sense of scale on the Forum and they are two dimensional. Certain plants after years of familiarity with them you identify instinctively but can't say why, a bit like identifying somebody you know.

Knowledge of the plants eventually comes through familiarity and seeing them in collections or shows. Probably we are better off in the UK than many larger countries since our collectors and societies tend to be closer together and so more accessible.

Anyway though unfashionable these days, an introductory book on the plants would answer a lot of beginners questions and certainly get you familiar with the genera at least to help pinning down their identity.
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mmcavall
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Re: About the requests for ID, again. We need to consider moderating

Post by mmcavall »

I do not know how a moderator could know if a given member is posting a second thread in a given month. But within the same day, it is easy to know.
Even if not ideal, I think that limiting at one post per day is a starting point and is better than no moderation at all. What we have seen this week wouldn't have happened.
Again, I see no problem in creating this kind of rule. It is less "polemic" than one post per month, is better than nothing and is harmless, I think.
If we don't agree in creating rules, which is indeed hard, then the moderator of the section will have to be active in the sense of signaling and educating new members, which takes time. Or...we have to live with this.
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mmcavall
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Re: About the requests for ID, again. We need to consider moderating

Post by mmcavall »

Another idea is to create an automatic reply to all first posts in the ID section. This automatic reply would explain that it is not welcomed to post a second thread or ask for more IDs within a given period of time. We would quickly learn to ignore this, but the new members would have an explanation about forum politeness, which they in fact don't know.
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M.B
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Re: About the requests for ID, again. We need to consider moderating

Post by M.B »

The list/pics of COMMON cactus is fantastic and could possibly limit some COMMON cactus ID request.

Critical observation of the COMMON cactus list (apologies in advance) - Display the pics before the list instead of the list before the pics. A newbie only looking for a cactus ID is thrown off by a list of long unpronounceable cactus names with no pics. I know there are pics below the list, but I did not realize this the first time I clicked on the COMMON cactus list. My reaction was, “I need a darn name, what good is this long @ss list of so-called common cactus names?”. Yes, my goldfish attention span was in FULL effect. For a newbie, the pics first will get more attention. This will not solve the problem, just might help a little.

Things in my head on requests for cactus ID’s:

- Is there a way to make the COMMON cactus list mandatory viewing after clicking on NEW THREAD in the CACTI IDENTIFICATION folder?

When I say mandatory I mean the COMMON cactus list pops up after you click NEW THREAD in the CACTI IDENTIFICATION folder. This will make the list knowingly available before anyone requests a cactus ID. It might also open the door for snide comments toward COMMON cactus ID’s that are known to be on the COMMON cactus list [-X. This will not eliminate all COMMON requests, it might help eliminate some.

- Is the COMMON cactus list a page/thread that can be made the homepage for the CACTI IDENTIFICATION folder?

Click on the CACTI IDENTIFICATION folder and the COMMON cactus list pops up. This would piss off people who click on the folder to view threads, but I am just tossing ideas around to put more ideas out there. Again, would not eliminate all COMMON cactus requests, just might help eliminate some.

- Can the COMMON cactus list be made prominent on the CactiGuide.com homepage?

When I say prominent I mean the most prominent on the homepage without scrolling. There is a top 10 requested IDs on the main page but it is not the most prominent when the main page opens. Does the Top 10 list get a click from users who create a profile and request a cactus ID? Should the COMMON cactus list be a superstar of the homepage?

Neither of these suggestions might be possible, just tossing stuff around.
_________

I would like to look for ways to accommodate. My introduction happened looking for an ID for a small cactus pad I that was attached to my dogs leg when he returned from running around in a field. I brought the 2 or 3 inch pad inside, potted it up in some Miracle Grow Potting Soil, placed it on a nightstand near a window and etiolation soon began LOL. I thought I was a magician! I decided to search the web for an ID (proud of myself), I found Daiv (not on the forum) who identified what I had, which by that time had grown a pointy head long as a pencil. He mentioned it was an Opuntia, it was severely etiolated, that etiolation is incurable and the soil should be more gritty, etc. In all his professionalism all I could see was him telling me,

“You’re not a magician and you are killing that cactus as fast as you can” LOL

As a newbie I was CRUSHED, as some newbies might be. From there I joined the forum and learned cactus magicians are all over the world. I would like to personally WELCOME EVERY CACTUS MAGICIAN ACROSS THE GLOBE.

I don’t like restrictions. I especially do not like the idea of restrictions on cactus ID's...on the CactiGuide? All cactus magicians should be welcome to stay a day or a lifetime. That said, I’m all in for efficiency if "really" necessary.
walker87
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Re: About the requests for ID, again. We need to consider moderating

Post by walker87 »

Just my 2 cents worth..

The never ending barrage of ID requests is personally frustrating.
I log on to the forum check the new posts and every single time there seems to be at least one new request.

I believe that people need to first educate themselves and then if they're drawing a blank the last resort should be a forum request.

Bogging down what is an active forum with some incredible information available with never ending ID requests from what appears to be fleeting members seems like such a waste.
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7george
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Re: About the requests for ID, again. We need to consider moderating

Post by 7george »

Free unlimited IDs: do we advertise this somewhere? :D

Moderation can be implemented by conditional posting (initiating a new topic) in ID sections. Like not before 1 year of presence or 50 posts for example, if such kind of approach will be accepted. But they can go to "free for all" section instead.

From other hand some members like ID-ing of plants, they (we) just like to show up and demonstrate some knowledge. 8)

If I asked for ID would restrict myself to one plant, not several or many. If I do not know the names of all my plants I would go to other place first before asking here. Or would read anonymously those tons of old posts and topics where similar plants most likely was already being pictured, named and identified many times before. :-k
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