A "how-to" guide on acidification

Discuss repotting, soil, lighting, fertilizing, watering, etc. in this category.
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Edwindwianto
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Re: A "how-to" guide on acidification

Post by Edwindwianto »

Steve Johnson wrote: Sat Mar 07, 2020 2:22 am Rain in the desert almost always comes from thunderstorm activity.
You are wrong on that one Steve

Because thunderstorm in desert are dry thunderstorm

I quote
Dry thunderstorms generally occur in deserts

A dry thunderstorm is a thunderstorm that produces thunder and lightning, but most or all of its precipitation evaporates before reaching the ground
Upon clicking the "evaporates before reaching the ground"
In meteorology, a virga is an observable streak or shaft of precipitation falling from a cloud that evaporates or sublimates before reaching the ground.
Had all that moisture and nitrate reached the ground, there would have been no desert...
There would have been lush green...

=============

Also...what seems to be apparant, doesnt always the real solution

1) You had an headache...you toke paracetamol and your headache was relieved...
2) You had an headache again...you went to doctor and it turned out that your blood preasure is high...you toke blood preasure medication...your headache was relieved...

Which one, according to you, is the real solution for your headache?

Same with acidity for calcicole desert cacti...i just dont think it's right...mother nature can't be wrong,...
Because...had it been right, than i would have struggled in raising my desert cacti...but that is not the case...
As you put it, "growth retardant"

The 1st thing i do as a gardener would be to mimic mother nature...not create some environment which is completely new...
Or every farmerin this world...they try to mimic mother nature as close as possible to gain a max yield
I have never seen a farmer who grow tomato on alkaline soil...

Remember...i use straight appartement tap water which is alkaline and fertilizer (which is acidic and will melt some Ca2+ ions from my limestones and render my medium alkaline)...

Then you say...i'am not long enough in raising them for the effect to be noticable...
What is long enough according to you Steve?
2 years or 3 years of unchanged media?...when would you change your media, when you judge your media has too much salt buildup?

EDWIN
Last edited by Edwindwianto on Sat Mar 07, 2020 3:18 am, edited 3 times in total.
bartab
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Re: A "how-to" guide on acidification

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Good Lord
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Steve Johnson
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Re: A "how-to" guide on acidification

Post by Steve Johnson »

Edwindwianto wrote: Sat Mar 07, 2020 3:05 amYou are wrong on that one Steve

Because thunderstorm in desert are dry thunderstorm

I quote
Dry thunderstorms generally occur in deserts

A dry thunderstorm is a thunderstorm that produces thunder and lightning, but most or all of its precipitation evaporates before reaching the ground
I've lived in the SoCal area for pretty much all of my 62 years, and I have good knowledge of the southwestern deserts. I'll therefore enlighten you on a few facts regarding our 3 desert states. Quoting from Wikipedia, we'll start with Arizona:

"Arizona has an average annual rainfall of 12.7 in (323 mm),[41] which comes during two rainy seasons, with cold fronts coming from the Pacific Ocean during the winter and a monsoon in the summer. The monsoon season occurs toward the end of summer. In July or August, the dewpoint rises dramatically for a brief period. During this time, the air contains large amounts of water vapor. Dewpoints as high as 81 °F (27 °C) have been recorded during the Phoenix monsoon season. This hot moisture brings lightning, thunderstorms, wind, and torrential, if usually brief, downpours. These downpours often cause flash floods, which can turn deadly. In an attempt to deter drivers from crossing flooding streams, the Arizona Legislature enacted the Stupid Motorist Law."

Nevada:

"The average annual rainfall per year is about 7 inches (180 mm); the wettest parts get around 40 inches (1,000 mm)."

New Mexico:

"New Mexico's statewide average precipitation is 13.9 inches (350 mm) a year, with average monthly amounts peaking in the summer, as at Albuquerque, and Las Cruces in the south."

I never said that desert thunderstorms always produce rain, but when they do, it's enough to support the cacti and other xeric plant life in places like the Sonoran desert. Before you tell me I'm wrong, you should go there and see for yourself.
Edwindwianto wrote: Sat Mar 07, 2020 3:05 am Remember...i use straight appartement tap water which is alkaline and fertilizer (which is acidic and will melt some Ca2+ ions from my limestones and render my medium alkaline)...

Then you say...i'am not long enough in raising them for the effect to be noticable...
What is long enough according to you Steve?
2 years or 3 years of unchanged media?...when would you change your media, when you judge your media has too much salt buildup?
If you don't want to acidify your tap water, there's no need to change your mix if you flush your pots with distilled water or rainwater twice a year. Flushing means water coming out of the drain holes like a faucet. If the water coming out looks dirty, flush again until the water is clear. Not exactly ideal, but easier and better than changing salted-up mix with fresh mix every 2 or 3 years.
If you just want photos without all the blather, please visit my Flickr gallery.
My location: Los Angeles, CA (Zone 10b)
DaveW
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Re: A "how-to" guide on acidification

Post by DaveW »

Putting your plants out in a rainstorm is far better than using stored rainwater since it looses some of it's nitrogen in storage, but being a carpenter and not being a chemist I can't recall how much now? However stored rainwater is still better than UK or USA tap water. I don't know if as many additives are added to Thailand tap water as ours (fluoride, chlorine etc), therefore it may not be the same?

Long article broken up by adverts, so you need to continue to scroll down:-

https://sciencing.com/rainwater-contain ... -8461.html

From the Web:-

"Stored rainwater will likely lose a proportion of nitrogen due to a growing microbial community that will convert any ammonium and nitrate to nitrogen gas, which will be lost to the atmosphere.

Rainwater and snow both contain significant numbers of bacteria (snow is nucleated largely by a plant pathogen). Estimates range from 1,000 to 1,000,000 bacteria per mL of water. These bacteria can be carried huge distances by wind and end up condensing with moisture into precipitation. Dust carried from China deposits bacteria into precipitation in the U.S., for example."

"Falling rain also is bombarded by the nitrogen and carbon dioxide molecules in our atmosphere (72% of the air we breathe is nitrogen).
The result is all rain that falls being ever-so-slightly acidic in pH and contains a basic "fertilizer":
As rain drops drop through the air, carbon dioxide is trapped and carbonic acid is formed (H2-CO3)
Lightning helps fuse nitrogen and oxygen atmosphere gases into nitric oxide (N-O) that quickly becomes a more stable nitrogen dioxide (N-O2) in the air. Nitrogen dioxide in the air is trapped/absorbed by rain droplets and dissolves/degrades to simple hydrogen atoms (H) and nitrate (N-O3)."


https://www.dailynews.com/2017/02/09/fo ... t-deliver/

As the old saying goes about cacti "they can be a long time dying", therefore do not react to adverse potting soil as quick as normal plants do. Also you may have re-potted them again into fresh soil before any toxicity from limestone can build up. In nature plants never get re-potted and those living on limestone have to tolerate it all their lives and therefore grow slower. A suitable test would be periodically testing the PH of the soil the plant is in to see if it changes over time? The PH of the soil you initially pot it in may not be the same as it is in the pot a year later.

As said before seeing how Ariocarpus seed set in the soil you use grows is probably a quicker test than a mature plant just planted in it, provided the seedlings are grown in it for a long enough period to allow any PH changes the limestone may make.
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MikeInOz
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Re: A "how-to" guide on acidification

Post by MikeInOz »

Steve Johnson wrote: Fri Dec 13, 2019 2:29 am
Some people call them "calcium lovers", which is a complete misnomer. The fact is that genera inhabiting calcareous native soils tolerate a level of calcium that most (or all) surrounding plant life won't grow in. However, calcium is a natural growth inhibitor, and when these "calcium lovers" are grown without it under cultivation, .........
Steve, saying ''Ca lovers'' are grown without it under cultivation is obviously incorrect because as we all know Ca is an essential nutrient. That being the case, we then need to quantify the concentration of Ca in the substrate which you consider is at a level to inhibit growth. Also, the reason other plants do not grow in the same regions as the cacti is not due to their intolerance for it. The limiting factor here is water. This is evidenced by the profusion of growth on pure limestone and it's resulting soils in wet climates. I have not seen any evidence which shows a level of Ca that inhibits growth of calcicoles. Where did you hear that? I would be interested to read it. You're not talking about alkaline calcium sources when you say calcium are you?

Mike
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MikeInOz
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Re: A "how-to" guide on acidification

Post by MikeInOz »

DaveW post_id=370316 time=1583580458 user_id=5831]

Also you may have re-potted them again into fresh soil before any toxicity from limestone can build up.
You can't get toxicity from limestone but you can get deficiencies from too many carbonate and bicarbonate ions resulting in a high pH. I think you may be putting Calcium and pH in the same basket. These plants (limestone growers) can thrive with high levels of Ca but only certain levels of alkalinity. For example they can grow in high levels of gypsum as well (Astrophytum myriostigma for example) which is high in Ca but low in carbonates. If you are slowly getting a rise in pH in the pot it is most probably due to calcium bicarbonate in the water and/or starting with a media with too much soluble calcium bicarbonate and/or using too much finely ground limestone.
In nature plants never get re-potted and those living on limestone have to tolerate it
all their lives and therefore grow slower.
I have read this a lot lately. I don't know where it comes from. I have yet to see any evidence for it. I think the reason these plants grow faster in cultivation is due to higher nitrogen and water availability. I don't think it has the slightest thing to do with the limestone. Happy to be proven wrong.
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Steve Johnson
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Re: A "how-to" guide on acidification

Post by Steve Johnson »

MikeInOz wrote: Mon Jul 27, 2020 4:16 amSteve, saying ''Ca lovers'' are grown without it under cultivation is obviously incorrect because as we all know Ca is an essential nutrient.
I grow the vast majority of my cacti in a 60/40 pumice-granite gravel mix, so I have to fertilize every time I water them in the growing season. My fertilizer of choice is Dyna-Gro All-Pro 7-7-7 liquid concentrate, dilution rate 1/2 teaspoon per gallon of water. Here is the fert's nutrient profile:

Image

As you can see, the cacti are getting Ca through the fertilizer, so I should state more precisely that my so-called "Calcium lovers" (Ariocarpus fissuratus, Aztekium ritteri, Epithelantha bokei, E. micromeris, and E. micromeris dickisoniae for example) grow perfectly well without adding limestone to the mix as some growers insist on doing.
MikeInOz wrote: Mon Jul 27, 2020 4:16 amI have not seen any evidence which shows a level of Ca that inhibits growth of calcicoles. Where did you hear that? I would be interested to read it. You're not talking about alkaline calcium sources when you say calcium are you?
I saw your response to what DaveW just said. I know very little about chemistry, and you're obviously well-versed on the subject, so I withdraw my opinion that limestone inhibits growth in calcicole cacti.
If you just want photos without all the blather, please visit my Flickr gallery.
My location: Los Angeles, CA (Zone 10b)
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MikeInOz
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Re: A "how-to" guide on acidification

Post by MikeInOz »

Steve Johnson wrote: Mon Jul 27, 2020 7:35 am
MikeInOz wrote: Mon Jul 27, 2020 4:16 amSteve, saying ''Ca lovers'' are grown without it under cultivation is obviously incorrect because as we all know Ca is an essential nutrient.
I grow the vast majority of my cacti in a 60/40 pumice-granite gravel mix, so I have to fertilize every time I water them in the growing season. My fertilizer of choice is Dyna-Gro All-Pro 7-7-7 liquid concentrate, dilution rate 1/2 teaspoon per gallon of water. Here is the fert's nutrient profile:

Image

As you can see, the cacti are getting Ca through the fertilizer, so I should state more precisely that my so-called "Calcium lovers" (Ariocarpus fissuratus, Aztekium ritteri, Epithelantha bokei, E. micromeris, and E. micromeris dickisoniae for example) grow perfectly well without adding limestone to the mix as some growers insist on doing.
MikeInOz wrote: Mon Jul 27, 2020 4:16 amI have not seen any evidence which shows a level of Ca that inhibits growth of calcicoles. Where did you hear that? I would be interested to read it. You're not talking about alkaline calcium sources when you say calcium are you?
I saw your response to what DaveW just said. I know very little about chemistry, and you're obviously well-versed on the subject, so I withdraw my opinion that limestone inhibits growth in calcicole cacti.
Thanks for your reply Steve. Yes your plants are getting plenty of Ca. And 4 times the Ca as Magnesium which fits in nicely with what I was talking about on the other thread regarding plants which need ''limestone or high pH'' actually do fine as long as the Ca/mg ratios are right which yours is!
I'm actually tired of mixing liquid feeds so I plan on using a high K Osmocote (11-11-18) on everything this coming season.
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Re: A "how-to" guide on acidification

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MikeInOz wrote: Mon Jul 27, 2020 8:19 amThanks for your reply Steve. Yes your plants are getting plenty of Ca. And 4 times the Ca as Magnesium which fits in nicely with what I was talking about on the other thread regarding plants which need ''limestone or high pH'' actually do fine as long as the Ca/mg ratios are right which yours is!
Hi Mike,

Thank you for posting your "On the question of limestone growers..." thread on the Cultivation forum -- the important connection between Calcium and Magnesium was quite revealing! And it brings us to another revelation concerning the reason why I started this thread -- a "how to" guide on acidifying hard tap/well water for better growth of our cacti. To those of you who haven't seen it before (or you have, but you could use a refresher on all the details), go here first:

http://www.cactiguide.com/forum/viewtop ... 25&t=43525

The tap water here in L.A. had been on the hard side for many years, my part of it fluctuating between a pH of 7.5 and 8 depending on the season (higher in the winter and summer). With periodic checks of my pH meter, I was keeping the final pH of my acidified water and fertilizer solution to a number in the 5-5.5 range using 1/2 tsp. Dyna-Gro 7-7-7 plus 2 or 2 1/2 tsp. of 5% vinegar. Then last summer I got lazy and decided that A. 2 tsp. of vinegar should be fine, and B. I didn't need to check the pH meter anymore. Just out of curiosity, I checked it at the beginning of this spring -- don't know when or why it happened, but our water quality improved as the pH coming out of my tap was an even 7.0. Add the Dyna-Gro and 2 tsp. of vinegar, and the final pH this time was 4.0. Have I been over-acidifying? That's a question I could never find an answer for -- how much is too much? Now we do:

Image

As many of you probably know, I grow the vast majority of my cacti in a 60/40 pumice-granite gravel mix. Going through the "slurry test" I described in my presentation, I already know that the mix raises the pH by 0.6, so the roots imediately start taking up the acidified water/fert solution at a pH of 4.6. Going by the table above -- on a scale of 0 to 10, the growing quality numbers don't look too good. Next, I also know that pH of the water in the mix slowly rebounds, moving up until it hits 1.5 points above the initial pH until it completely dries out. Now we're at a pH around 6.1 right before the mix goes bone-dry at the bottom of my pots. Yeah, I have been over-acidifying. If it weren't for what I learned from Mike's thread, I'd continue doing it blissfully unaware of what the long-term consequences might be. But luckily I caught this in time, so when I watered the collection last weekend, I paid attention to the pH meter -- from now on I'll be periodically checking to make sure that the pH of the watering solution stays between 5.0 and 5.5.

The Ca/Mg ratio of 4:1 in the Dyna-Gro fert is perfect. However, Calcium and Magnesium obviously aren't the major nutrients sustaining plant growth, so our main concern should be about how over-acidification inhibits the proper uptake of N, P, and K (not to mention other minor and micronutrients). At least there was no harm done from the mistake I made, but entirely possible that it cheated me out of a better growing season this year. With 2 months of summer left, hopefully the corrected acidification level will be enough to reverse the "my bad" and give the collection a chance to make up for some lost time. In the meantime, here's a take-away so that y'all can learn from my mistake:
  • A small amount of acidification is better than nothing -- when in doubt, go light on the acidifier.
I understand why casual growers would view a pH meter as a complication they'd rather not deal with, in which case there's nothing wrong with pH test strips. For those of us who aren't so casual about it, the meter I recommend in my presentation isn't complicated if you take the time to set up your routine with the procedures I laid out there. Once you have it down, the rest is easy. Regardless of whether you use test strips or a meter, the key is to avoid overdoing it on the acidification.
If you just want photos without all the blather, please visit my Flickr gallery.
My location: Los Angeles, CA (Zone 10b)
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MikeInOz
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Re: A "how-to" guide on acidification

Post by MikeInOz »

Hi Steve
There is more that might interest you. Because you use pumice and gravel the Cation Exchange Capacity of your mix is probably very low (in other words it cannot hold onto cations like Ammonium, Ca, Mg, and K, therefore you are essentially growing hydroponically. That's not an issue if you feed very regularly (I think I read that you do) but the plants would soon starve if you held off on the feed for a while because there is nothing to hold it there. As far as I know, pumice has almost no buffer capacity (the ability to resist changes in pH) and gravel has none. Also not necessarily a problem but you have to monitor the pH of the solution very strictly because it would be subject to wild swings. If you ever get tired of having to monitor the pH and fertilization of your mix, adding something with high CEC would reduce the need to do so. Anything with high colloid concentration (microscopic, negatively charged surfaces) would help. These colloids are found in most clay and humus. They are have very interesting properties and help explain how cacti are able to get their nutrient requirements in what can appear to be very meager soils. It's why I prefer to include some of them in my mixes and use a controlled release fertilizer so all I need to do is water and I know the pH will not change much and the plants will always have nutrients they need.
Years ago when I had a nursery (general plants) the water there was quite bad. pH as high as 9.5 sometimes but because the soil was largely organic with a high buffer capacity and the fertilizer used was basically ammonium form of nitrogen, it did not affect even the acid lovers and they grew well.
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Re: A "how-to" guide on acidification

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Good stuff very interesting . I checked my Miracle grow fertilizer no calcium at all , bummer.
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Re: A "how-to" guide on acidification

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Steve Johnson
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Re: A "how-to" guide on acidification

Post by Steve Johnson »

Hi Mike,

Thanks for your detailed follow-up -- I really do appreciate that! :)
MikeInOz wrote: Mon Aug 10, 2020 1:10 pmBecause you use pumice and gravel the Cation Exchange Capacity of your mix is probably very low (in other words it cannot hold onto cations like Ammonium, Ca, Mg, and K, therefore you are essentially growing hydroponically. That's not an issue if you feed very regularly (I think I read that you do) but the plants would soon starve if you held off on the feed for a while because there is nothing to hold it there.
Correct on both counts -- I am indeed taking the hydroponic approach with my soil-less mix, and I need to fertilize all of the cacti every time they get watered. Being an apartment-dweller, the growing space I have limits me to 68 plants, so keeping up on the water and fert routine every time is quite manageable. If I was growing hundreds of cacti, I might be singing a different tune, in which case what you suggested would make perfect sense.
MikeInOz wrote: Mon Aug 10, 2020 1:10 pmAs far as I know, pumice has almost no buffer capacity (the ability to resist changes in pH) and gravel has none. Also not necessarily a problem but you have to monitor the pH of the solution very strictly because it would be subject to wild swings.
Monitoring the pH with my meter was something I did all the time in 2012, then once a month in 2013. In 2014, I determined that every 2 months or so in spring and summer is sufficient. Based on 8 years of generally excellent growing, I didn't have to be as strict as you might think. But as I said, I got lazy this spring. Funny thing is, a week after I watered with a pH 5.4 watering solution on August 1, I could already see cacti perking up after months of over-acidified water. Certainly a teachable moment, and the laziness was a mistake I'll make only once!

By the way -- maybe I'm weird, but I kinda enjoy the "ritual" of setting up the meter when I bring it out to test the pH of my watering solution right before the collection gets watered. Every 2 months in the growing season, and taking a little bit of time to do it is no problem at all.
If you just want photos without all the blather, please visit my Flickr gallery.
My location: Los Angeles, CA (Zone 10b)
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MikeInOz
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Re: A "how-to" guide on acidification

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Steve Johnson wrote: Tue Aug 11, 2020 1:40 am

By the way -- maybe I'm weird,
Oh we're all weird Steve :lol:
I checked out your pics. I Love that Echinocereus viridiflorus Canus. I ordered some from Mesa but under the name E chloranthus I think. I had no idea such a plant existed. Did yours come from them?
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Steve Johnson
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Re: A "how-to" guide on acidification

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MikeInOz wrote: Tue Aug 11, 2020 9:59 amI checked out your pics. I Love that Echinocereus viridiflorus Canus. I ordered some from Mesa but under the name E chloranthus I think. I had no idea such a plant existed. Did yours come from them?
Nope, that was a discovery I found on the Miles' To Go website back in 2016. I'm assembling another installment of the 2019 end-of-summer review for my Member blogs thread, so you'll get to see more recent pics of the E. canus there. By the way, Miles Anderson is one of the best growers in the American cactus nursery trade -- too bad he doesn't ship plants outside the US, but I understand why given all the hassles involved.

Thanks, Mike!
If you just want photos without all the blather, please visit my Flickr gallery.
My location: Los Angeles, CA (Zone 10b)
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