A "how-to" guide on acidification

Discuss repotting, soil, lighting, fertilizing, watering, etc. in this category.
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WayneByerly
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Re: A "how-to" guide on acidification

Post by WayneByerly »

WayneByerly wrote: Fri Nov 22, 2019 4:56 am i don't think i said it here, but i'll repeat it here. i think part of it depends on your own personal tendencies ... the way you run your life. I do the best job I can in almost everything I do ... so in those kinds of cases, a meter IS most appropriate ... but there ARE cases where the "rule of thumb" and not "rocket science calibration" is perfectly adequate.

My water comes from a well, and is therefore somewhat consistent in its pH ... so after almost a year of measuring the pH of my water and dispensing an appropriate amount of vinegar to "fix" it, I pretty know what the pH is going to be and adjust for the pH my experience has taught me ... without use of strips OR meter.

I AM of the opinion however that we DO need to duplicate the NATURAL environment of our xeric plants to the greatest extent possible ... IF we DO care about our plants.

But then we come back to our own personal tendencies ... rocket science or rule of thumb ... but personally speaking, I am EVERSO grateful for Steve's post here. Whether we use it or not, I believe we are all better off with as much information as we can gather. Thanks for all your efforts Steve.
Make the moral choice & always do what's right. Be a good example. Be part of the solution & make a contribution to society, or be part of the problem & end your life with nothing but regrets. Live a life you can be proud of! Zone 7a
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Steve Johnson
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Re: A "how-to" guide on acidification

Post by Steve Johnson »

WayneByerly wrote: Fri Nov 22, 2019 4:56 amThanks for all your efforts Steve.
You're most welcome, Wayne. I firmly believe in people knowing what all their choices are, then choosing what's best for them based on their individual circumstances. In your case, the minerals in your well water are a known quantity, so you're right about not having to periodically test the pH with your meter. For those of us "on the grid" with municipal water systems, I'm now recommending that folks test the pH of their tap water once in the spring and once in the summer, since the pH coming out of the faucet tends to be higher in summer. If you'd like to do it more often, that's fine, but I've been at this long enough to know that testing the tap water once a month in the growing season isn't necessary.
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Edwindwianto
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Re: A "how-to" guide on acidification

Post by Edwindwianto »

Wait a mnt...

What about the cacti which grow naturaly in calcareous soil (calcium bicarbonate soil)?
Like arios and friends...

I'am not sure about the bicarbonate build which could smother the plant <<< i'am a noob which don't know about this theory

Thanks a lot

PS: i use limestone chips (calcium bicarbonate rock) and coarse sand (silica based sand i think) for my arios and friends <<< try to mimic it's calcareous habitat
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Steve Johnson
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Re: A "how-to" guide on acidification

Post by Steve Johnson »

Edwindwianto wrote: Fri Dec 13, 2019 1:42 amWhat about the cacti which grow naturaly in calcareous soil (calcium bicarbonate soil)?
Like arios and friends...
Some people call them "calcium lovers", which is a complete misnomer. The fact is that genera inhabiting calcareous native soils tolerate a level of calcium that most (or all) surrounding plant life won't grow in. However, calcium is a natural growth inhibitor, and when these "calcium lovers" are grown without it under cultivation, they'll grow a little faster than they would in the wild. 2 examples I have in my collection are Ario fissuratus and Aztekium ritteri -- both are doing quite well without any limestone in the mix.
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WayneByerly
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Re: A "how-to" guide on acidification

Post by WayneByerly »

s
Edwindwianto wrote: Fri Dec 13, 2019 1:42 am What about the cacti which grow naturaly in calcareous soil (calcium bicarbonate soil)? Like arios and friends...
While these kinds of cacti WILL grow in this environment, they will not necessarily thrive in it. And if you grow them in a soil devoid of such ... contaminants :lol:, they will grow healthier.

This is a perfectly excellent example of what *I* call the difference between "General Rules" and "Species Specific Rules" in the cultivation of xeric plants. The General Rules say that such soil conditions are anathema to cacti, while the Species Specific Rules (and these are NOT Rules ... it's just a way of talking about cacti cultivation) say that inclusion of these "calcareous limestone" components are acceptable.

Don't strap yourself to a table trying to come up with ABSOLUTES in regard to how to take care of your cacti. Sometimes the General Rules will suffice, and sometimes the Species Specific Rules are NECESSARY and sometimes they'll "DO".

All you can do, is the best you can do. Growing cacti is not a punishment ... it's a JOY ... have FUN with what you are doing
Make the moral choice & always do what's right. Be a good example. Be part of the solution & make a contribution to society, or be part of the problem & end your life with nothing but regrets. Live a life you can be proud of! Zone 7a
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Edwindwianto
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Re: A "how-to" guide on acidification

Post by Edwindwianto »

Steve Johnson wrote: Sun Sep 08, 2019 6:06 pm What we're doing here is essentially a "slurry test" to determine if the mix has a neutral, slightly alkaline, or slightly acidic effect on the water going to the roots. Ideally, the runoff water should be approximately 5.5 (a few points plus or minus won't matter). If it's above 6.0, add a little more vinegar. If it's below 5.0, reduce the amount of vinegar. Once you determine the correct amount, you'll need to run the slurry test only once unless you change your mix.
OK Steve, i've done my homework by reading some sources regarding cacti and acidic water.
I'am convinced now...so thanks a lot for this theory.

I need a clarification please from what you said above, in bold.

So, the final reading should be PH5.5?

Final reading = the reading of the slurry test when you water your substrate with your made up acidified water

Is that it?
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Steve Johnson
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Re: A "how-to" guide on acidification

Post by Steve Johnson »

Edwindwianto wrote: Wed Dec 18, 2019 7:01 amOK Steve, i've done my homework by reading some sources regarding cacti and acidic water.
I'am convinced now...so thanks a lot for this theory.
Indeed you did -- nice! Can't remember where I found it, but when I read that article by Elton Roberts in December 2011, it really was a major revelation.
Edwindwianto wrote: Wed Dec 18, 2019 7:01 amI need a clarification please from what you said above, in bold.

So, the final reading should be PH5.5?

Final reading = the reading of the slurry test when you water your substrate with your made up acidified water

Is that it?
That is correct. Although he didn't explain it in his article, Elton mentioned something called pH "rebound". What it means -- whenever we acidify hard water, the pH will slowly creep up over a period of time. Doesn't matter if this happens with acidified water sitting in a jug or going into your mix, the effect is the same. I ran the slurry test myself before I posted the presentation you saw, and here are the results...

Using my soil-less pumice and granite gravel mix, I determined the amount of white vinegar I needed to get a pH of 5.5 with the slurry test. After 5 days, the pH rebounded up to 6.3, then up to 7.0 after 8 days. It takes my cacti about 7 or 8 days for their mix to go bone-dry top to bottom after they're watered, so 5.5 was the right pH for the acidified water going into their roots. If I didn't acidify enough, pH rebound would've taken the water in the mix from acid to alkaline before their roots were dry and ready for another deep drink.

Years ago, Elton asked an interesting question -- when it comes to acidifying, how much is too much? He never provided an answer, although recent personal experience indicates that a pH of 5.0 after the slurry test wouldn't be overdoing it, especially when we factor in the rebound effect. As I said in my presentation, a few points plus or minus won't matter, but my recommendation these days is to aim for a pH on the lower end of the 5.0-5.5 range.
If you just want photos without all the blather, please visit my Flickr gallery.
My location: Los Angeles, CA (Zone 10b)
bartab
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Re: A "how-to" guide on acidification

Post by bartab »

Thank you for this post. I looked up our water district website where it gives information on our local water quality. Our town is not specifically listed but several neighboring towns are. The Ph listed for the most part is in the 9ish range. I have obtained citric acid and will be treating my water from now on. I had used strips before and now I’m going to order a better unit. Again, thanks.
DaveW
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Re: A "how-to" guide on acidification

Post by DaveW »

Most water undertakings make their water alkaline so it does not corrode the metal pipes, something which used to be more of a concern when in the past lead pipes were used because acid water released lead from the pipes into the drinking water, something which was not good for human health.

Steve's "PH rebound" mirrors something Marlon Marchado (a Brazilian Botanist) wrote about cacti inhabiting limestone in that they only grew when they received acid rain and stopped growing when the underlying rock turned the water alkaline, in effect a form or rebound from the substrate.

However limestone chips do not alter the PH as fast as ground garden lime because the finer the material is ground the quicker the alkalinity is released, therefore if you must use limestone chips in your potting soil never replace them with garden lime for plants from limestone areas. As Steve implies, the only real reason to add limestone is to slow growth and keep the plant more compact and "habitat looking", though remember they get acid rain to counteract the limestone alkalinity in habitat and not just alkaline tap water in order to grow.
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Edwindwianto
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Re: A "how-to" guide on acidification

Post by Edwindwianto »

DaveW wrote: Fri Mar 06, 2020 10:00 am (2) the only real reason to add limestone is to slow growth and keep the plant more compact and "habitat looking",

(1) though remember they get acid rain to counteract the limestone alkalinity in habitat and not just alkaline tap water in order to grow.
Good afternoon Dave

1) But that is just what i do Dave

2) And i don't see any slowing in growth at all, even in the species that Lifle says a slow grower
- My L. principis and Lifle says it is a slow grower (I'll post a more complete documentation by the end of March when the tubercle that i observe is fully developed)
- My O. macdougallii and lifle says it is a slow grower

I will keep documenting my cacti growth in order to know the real fact...
Because i always believe in science, a calcicole plant needs calcium to gain body weight

Actually...i have 2 months of pict of my Ario kotchou which i havent posted yet...
But it shows a growth of 2 new tubercle simustaneusly in 1 month periode
And this early march...i already notice 2 new other tubercle tips...i believe, by the middle of March, i can see it more clearly
(I take it's pict every middle of month) (So now there are 4 tubercles growing simustaneusly)

Ah...let's just post it now...
I plan to post these pict at the end of 2020, so that i may have a full year documentation...but whatever 😁
You can see 2 new tubercle in the direction of 5 o'clock and 9 o'clock which weren't there at January
I believe, we all agree that kotchou are slow grower
01 - Jan9th 2020.jpg
01 - Jan9th 2020.jpg (80.54 KiB) Viewed 13291 times
02 - Feb16th 2020.jpg
02 - Feb16th 2020.jpg (75.08 KiB) Viewed 13291 times
Or is it a slow grower because you plant it in the acid medium?...i wonder...hmmm

EDWIN
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Re: A "how-to" guide on acidification

Post by DaveW »

Growth speed is relative Edwin and often due to your climate. You probably have better cactus growing conditions than I do in the UK.

Plants are individuals and some grow quicker than others, therefore for a proper scientific test you need four or five of the same species planted in the soil with limestone chips and another set in one without. However as I said limestone (unlike ground garden lime) releases it's alkalinity slowly, therefore short term it may have little effect on your soil PH and may only make a noticeable difference over an extended period. Therefore there may be little advantage or disadvantage of adding it to soils in pots that are repotted regularly. Plants in habitat never get repotted.

Few of us have the quantity of rarer plants to do such meaningful scientific tests unless we have grown them from seed. In fact germinating and growing Ariocarpus seeds in those two different mixes may be a quicker study of which they prefer than mature plants which can take a long time to ail and die, particularly tuberous rooted ones.
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Re: A "how-to" guide on acidification

Post by Edwindwianto »

DaveW wrote: Fri Mar 06, 2020 6:28 pm Growth speed is relative Edwin and often due to your climate. You probably have better cactus growing conditions than I do in the UK.
Good morning Dave

Ah...climate...

I think in the discution point of view, shifting the judgement criteria to gain leverage is not fair...

Ex:
One day a peasant boy is caught by his neighbour due to stealing a bread and be brought in front of a judge
After short consideration, the judge sentence him to 6 months in prison
Before he can knock the gavel...another citizen bring another boy...
He says "Judge, this boy stole my bread. Give him a lesson"
Upon recognizing the later boy, the judge quickly says "you may go Your Highness"

Baffled with this...the second citizen ask the judge..."but...but...but...why?"
"He is the prince, you idiot", the judge reply
=====

By this story...you can't really tell that stealing is an universal crime, can you?
Because the judge shift the point of view of this matter
It is a crime if it is done by peasant boy
But it is not, by a prince

The same goes to acidity...if i present you a counter prove, then you shift the point of view to climate...you dont stay in "acidity/alkalinity corridor", as in the judge doesn't stay in "stealing is bad corridor"
Than, you yourself, in fact, cannot say that acidity has a role in cacti growth, can you?
As in the judge cannot say that the law of stealing has a role in deciding that all thiefs are criminal

The UK climate is the culprit who makes all your cacti a slow grower...not the acidity/alkalinity
As in blood line is the culprit who makes stealing not a crime...not the law...

Why would we even talk about law here?...if blood line is the point of judgement
Why would we even talking about acidity/alkalinity?....if climate is the point of judgement

But that is another story...

I agree that in order to present a meaningful prove, we have to do an experiment with many cacti...

But that also means that you cannot say all the time about acidity being good to cacti
Because you your self doesnt have the experiment and all who claim they does, didnt grow their cacti in thailand...
I could always say that their experience is invalid due to climate...not because of alkalinity/acidity...

And let's all just say...cacti grows better due to climate
Not due to acidity/alkalinity...
DaveW wrote: Fri Mar 06, 2020 6:28 pm However as I said limestone (unlike ground garden lime) releases it's alkalinity slowly
I think we all agree that my appartement's straight tap water is alkaline enough, without have to be tested
Because all appartement in the world are pretty much built in the same way with the same materials, thus also dictates the use of alkaline water in it's pipe...

I also use fertilizer and it's acidity will melt some Ca2+ ions out of my limestones which in turn renders my medium alkaline all the time

EDWIN
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Edwindwianto
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Re: A "how-to" guide on acidification

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Edwindwianto wrote: Fri Mar 06, 2020 10:59 am And this early march...i already notice 2 new other tubercle tips.. (So now there are 4 tubercles growing simustaneusly)
This is the pict of this morning
03 - Mar07 2020.jpg
03 - Mar07 2020.jpg (79.89 KiB) Viewed 13200 times
Well..maybe not 2 other new tubercle...but 1, in the direction of 2 o'clock
The other one, on the direction of 11 o'clock, is so tiny and i'am not sure with my eyes...is it just a wool or indeed a new tubercle...
So, let's just say for now...i correct myself to 1 other new tubercle this early March which was not there at Feb16th 2020 (my pict above)

So there are 3 new tubercles growing simustaneously

Still, 1 new other tubercle in about 20day-ish (feb16th to mar7th)...is great for a kotchou...
Don't you agree?

EDWIN
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Steve Johnson
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Re: A "how-to" guide on acidification

Post by Steve Johnson »

Edwindwianto wrote: Fri Mar 06, 2020 9:33 pmWhy would we even talking about acidity/alkalinity?
We should talk about it because this has something to do with rainfall coming from thunderstorms. You may not see the connection at first, but there is an important one that should be helpful for all of us to know...

Rain in the desert almost always comes from thunderstorm activity. Thunder and lightning go together, and lightning strikes do two things. First, they take Nitrogen in the air and fix it in water -- the only significant Nitrogen source for xeric plants growing in the wild. And second, lightning strikes substantially reduce the pH of rainwater. How Much? This answer comes from Wikipedia:

"The pH of rain varies, especially due to its origin. On America's East Coast, rain that is derived from the Atlantic Ocean typically has a pH of 5.0–5.6; rain that comes across the continental from the west has a pH of 3.8–4.8; and local thunderstorms can have a pH as low as 2.0." (My emphasis added.)

Cacti in the desert get their acidified water the natural way, and for cacti growing in calcareous soils, this also neutralizes the soil's alkalinity as their roots are able to take up water and Nitrogen until the soil dries out.

For those of us who aren't blessed with thunderstorm-generated rainwater, "plain old" rainwater is good enough, although low-level fertilizer is required to provide nutrients for our plants. Living in the drought state of California, I don't have the luxury of relying on a steady supply of rainwater I can store for the growing season. I was able to store enough from the rains we received over the holidays (maybe more on the way?) to drench all of my cacti twice over once my growing season begins. After that, it'll be acidifying my tap water, and I have 8 years of wonderfully healthy, growing, and flowering cacti to show for my efforts.

I won't get into a debate about whether or not you should have limestone in your mix. But the benefits of acidification are apparent, so if you can't water your cacti with rainwater, I highly recommend it.
If you just want photos without all the blather, please visit my Flickr gallery.
My location: Los Angeles, CA (Zone 10b)
bartab
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Re: A "how-to" guide on acidification

Post by bartab »

Fantastic post Steve, thanks. I am looking forward to lowering my plants substrate ph this coming growing season. I think it is really going to help.

Tom
Last edited by bartab on Sat Mar 07, 2020 3:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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