Winter watering

Discuss repotting, soil, lighting, fertilizing, watering, etc. in this category.
LateBloomer
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Winter watering

Post by LateBloomer »

I understand people in some areas have hard freezes however why do people always recommend completely not watering during winter months even in more moderate temperatures? Is it mostly because most earlier cultivation tips came from these more extreme cold winter regions? Yes for most inexperienced growers little to no water recommend makes sense due to likely inadequate soils

From my understanding cultivation interest started mainly in Europe with travelers bringing back exotic tropical plants. I'm aware that soil will dry slower in cold temperatures however dry soil for months will kill any beneficial microbes and bacteria in the soil and also stresses plants with cold plus drought conditions. Watering even if only monthly will keep these beneficial relationships alive.

I'm not a botanist but wouldn't a well watered cactus produce more 'anti-freeze' alkaloids/proteins over a drought stressed plant? CAM plants are adept to drought conditions but it rains in habitat during winters. This isn’t for areas with hard freezes but in habitat even some Mexican cacti get wet in -6C or 22F. Also plants are adaptive and will release water if needed incase of cold or other conditions.

The common idea is that dry cactus will not 'freeze' due to very low water content but wouldn't a stress cactus do worse then a watered one? High nitrogen will cause very weak growth so don't fertilize in winter. Not saying we should be watering often but completely dry doesn’t seem logical and would actually make more sense during summers which is where CAM is most effective.

I'm NOT suggesting people water when freezing temperatures are expected however most growers have greenhouses that even unheated rarely go under freezing temperatures.

My soil is almost entirely mineral so I doubt there will be much issue with the soil drying within a few days. Do you keep your cacti completely dry during fall and winter months? Do you live in areas with hard freezes?

If someone could post any scientific papers or even just hobbyist tests showing that preparing cacti for dormancy with zero watering is better for frost tolerance. I’m fortunate to not have hard freeze but my area does get the rare 0C or even lower for a few hours
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jerrytheplater
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Re: Winter watering

Post by jerrytheplater »

I keep my winter hardy cacti in my unheated, detached garage which does get southern sun into a small window. My area can see -10F for a day or so. More normally we see +5F for 2-3 days. 10-15F for 7 days or so. 20F for 3 weeks. Sub 32F for over 2 months. So we are much colder. I stop watering these plants in mid to late September when we will start seeing frosts. They don't get water till late March. They are all now getting plenty of water and have fully swelled back to normal.
Jerry Smith
Bloomingdale, NJ
45 inches (114 cm) rain equivalent per year, approx. evenly spread per month
2012 USDA Hardiness Zone 6b: -5F to OF (-20C to -18C) min.
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Aeonium2003
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Re: Winter watering

Post by Aeonium2003 »

I would think that winter watering is fine if you can provide adequate heat and light. One of the reasons why people don't suggest watering in winter is because of etiolation. Without enough light, but with enough water, the plants can very easily etiolate.
LateBloomer
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Re: Winter watering

Post by LateBloomer »

jerrytheplater wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 5:59 pm I keep my winter hardy cacti in my unheated, detached garage which does get southern sun into a small window. My area can see -10F for a day or so. More normally we see +5F for 2-3 days. 10-15F for 7 days or so. 20F for 3 weeks. Sub 32F for over 2 months. So we are much colder. I stop watering these plants in mid to late September when we will start seeing frosts. They don't get water till late March. They are all now getting plenty of water and have fully swelled back to normal.
I know they can survive easily without water all this time but have you watered any opuntia days that are over freezing knowing they would see subfreezing temps?
Aeonium2003 wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 6:19 pm I would think that winter watering is fine if you can provide adequate heat and light. One of the reasons why people don't suggest watering in winter is because of etiolation. Without enough light, but with enough water, the plants can very easily etiolate.
I thought etiolation was due to too much nutrients or not enough light… In my experience never had from watering even regular waterings. Rot is a different issue but I’m sure that a plant/cactus can regulate water intake and won’t drink more than it needs. IME issues come from too much nutrients but I know many growers here have much more experience so would like to hear everyone even if a new grower.

Most here are starting summer soon but if you have extra seedlings to experiment with regular waterings during very cold weather I’d love to see/hear experience. My temps only reach freezing for a few hours so not really a perfect test but will do it with my lopho this year.

Opuntia that can survive freezing temps watered couple of days before freeze I’d like to see results if fair better even if both dry and watered survive the freeze
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BryanT
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Re: Winter watering

Post by BryanT »

I am not expert. I think a lot of the plants are more about the amount of air provided, and the structure and texture of the root system.
Plants grow in different environment develop different way of getting oxygen and nutrients with their root, just as a lots of plants can grow hydroponically. A lot of the time, root rot happen when soil become boggy and not enough air.
Fungal thrive in moist condition, but some of them are good for certain groups of plants, but not all.
I think most high altitude or cold zones (about US Zone 4) cacti should be able to handle some watering during colder months, as long as they are in well-drain soil. E.g., some Opuntia, Cumulopuntia, Echinocereus, Trichocereus, Escobaria and etc. They might even thrive with a bit of moisture (not wet for too long) just to keep the root system hydrated during colder months. Some of my columnar and Opuntia related cactus are growing outdoor under lots of winter rain condition.
Bryan
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LateBloomer
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Re: Winter watering

Post by LateBloomer »

BryanT wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 11:33 pm I am not expert. I think a lot of the plants are more about the amount of air provided, and the structure and texture of the root system.
Plants grow in different environment develop different way of getting oxygen and nutrients with their root, just as a lots of plants can grow hydroponically. A lot of the time, root rot happen when soil become boggy and not enough air.
Fungal thrive in moist condition, but some of them are good for certain groups of plants, but not all.
I think most high altitude or cold zones (about US Zone 4) cacti should be able to handle some watering during colder months, as long as they are in well-drain soil. E.g., some Opuntia, Cumulopuntia, Echinocereus, Trichocereus, Escobaria and etc. They might even thrive with a bit of moisture (not wet for too long) just to keep the root system hydrated during colder months. Some of my columnar and Opuntia related cactus are growing outdoor under lots of winter rain condition.
Do you get freezing temps or sub freezing temps ever?
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BryanT
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Re: Winter watering

Post by BryanT »

LateBloomer wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 11:58 pm Do you get freezing temps or sub freezing temps ever?
Currently Autumn, temperatures between 2°C to 15°. Winter temperatures between -2°C to 10°C. We get most of our rain in Winter.
Bryan
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LateBloomer
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Re: Winter watering

Post by LateBloomer »

Do you have any more cold sensitive plats exposed to full elements? Your temps are like mine here. I'll be testing regular watering during winter with my collection but since I never get temps under -2C id like to see if someone could test in colder climates.
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jerrytheplater
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Re: Winter watering

Post by jerrytheplater »

LateBloomer wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 8:54 pm
jerrytheplater wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 5:59 pm I keep my winter hardy cacti in my unheated, detached garage which does get southern sun into a small window. My area can see -10F for a day or so. More normally we see +5F for 2-3 days. 10-15F for 7 days or so. 20F for 3 weeks. Sub 32F for over 2 months. So we are much colder. I stop watering these plants in mid to late September when we will start seeing frosts. They don't get water till late March. They are all now getting plenty of water and have fully swelled back to normal.
I know they can survive easily without water all this time but have you watered any opuntia days that are over freezing knowing they would see subfreezing temps?
I don't grow any winter hardy Opuntia. But, there is one species of Opuntia, O. humifusa, that is native to my state. These get covered with snow, rain, ice and perk right up in the spring.

The late John N. Spain from my state of NJ wrote a booklet called "Growing Winter Hardy Cacti in Cold/Wet Climate Conditions". It was self published. He spent decades testing and growing cacti outdoors in specially prepared beds and kept records of his results. Escobaria missouriensis tops his list. Pediocactus simpsonii seldom lasted more than three years-he concluded that it requires exceptional drainage. Escobaria vivipara did very well for him. Echinocereus reichenbachii, E. triglochidiatus, and E. viridiflorus also did very well with the drainage he detailed. Opuntia basilaris, O. erinacea v. utahensis, O. fragilis, O. humifusa, O. imbricata, O. macrorhiza v. macrorhiza, O. macrorhiza v. pottsii, O. phaeacantha, O. polyacantha, O. tunicata, O. whipplei, O. x 'Rutilans', O. x 'Claude Arno', O. x 'Smithwick'.

He speaks of an orange flowering Opuntia polyacantha originating from Claude Barr in the Black Hills of South Dakota. Another orange Opuntia he was working with is O. zuniensis v. martiniana sent to him by David Ferguson of Albuquerque, New Mexico. This plant could also be known as O. phaeacantha v. major.
Jerry Smith
Bloomingdale, NJ
45 inches (114 cm) rain equivalent per year, approx. evenly spread per month
2012 USDA Hardiness Zone 6b: -5F to OF (-20C to -18C) min.
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BryanT
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Re: Winter watering

Post by BryanT »

LateBloomer wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 12:23 am Do you have any more cold sensitive plats exposed to full elements? Your temps are like mine here. I'll be testing regular watering during winter with my collection but since I never get temps under -2C id like to see if someone could test in colder climates.
Most of my cactus are in an unheated green house.
Bryan
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jerrytheplater
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Re: Winter watering

Post by jerrytheplater »

Here's a link to a 2009 article on John Spain's garden after he moved to Connecticut. There are thumbnail photos on the right you can click on to see his trough gardens and rock garden containing cacti.

http://www.dig-itmag.com/features/groun ... 4_0_4_0_M/
Jerry Smith
Bloomingdale, NJ
45 inches (114 cm) rain equivalent per year, approx. evenly spread per month
2012 USDA Hardiness Zone 6b: -5F to OF (-20C to -18C) min.
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jerrytheplater
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Re: Winter watering

Post by jerrytheplater »

John was a founding member of the Connecticut Cactus and Succulent Society. Their website has some of his Powerpoint slide shows he'd present on Winter Hardy Cacti. Worth taking a look at. https://www.ctcactussociety.org/john-spain-slide-shows
Jerry Smith
Bloomingdale, NJ
45 inches (114 cm) rain equivalent per year, approx. evenly spread per month
2012 USDA Hardiness Zone 6b: -5F to OF (-20C to -18C) min.
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mmcavall
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Re: Winter watering

Post by mmcavall »

I have relatively hot winters. I would say very hot winters comparing to the winters of most of the members here. Temperatures will very rarely be below 5 celsius even at night. Sun shines, there are no clouds and days are as hot as 23 celsius.
Nevertheless I keep many of my cacti completely dry during 70 to 90 days in winter. Not really sure why I start doing that. Probably, as Latebloomer suggests, I started this because of what I read in the forum, even tough my winter is hot.

But I will try to give an explanation: winter is hot but summer is much hotter and wet. It is very clear that there is a growing season and a "not too much growing" season. Pastures decay and get dry and brownish...forests lost its leaves...When spring come again, it starts to rain and things get green again and temperatures increases significantly.

So if I have two clearly different seasons I think I can make my cacti experience these different seasons. If they have this two diferent season in their habitats, and if my climate naturally offers these two different seasons, why should I ignore it and give them water all year round?

When I start the dry period, lets say, in late autumn, I see no reason to resume waterings in the middle of the winter considering I will have cold nights until spring arrives. I think (and I may be wrong) that resume waterings after a dry period is the same as saying to the cacti "winter is finished, you guys can start growing again"...so I think I must only do that when winter really ends.

Also I really like to see they thriving even with long dry periods. I also like their strong spination and not-plumped bodies. I believe and read here in the forum that mineral substrate, strong sun and a dry period are the three conditions that will lead to natural looking cacti. I really like to grow then very hard and I am satisfied with the results obtained. Maybe I am wrong and I could give them a shorter rest, but looking at them and their health and at the same time natural look I think I am in the correct way. But I do admit that I could maybe give very light waterings during this period. I really consider do that. I think I am still learning. It is possible that in the future I change my opinion.
Last edited by mmcavall on Sat May 21, 2022 2:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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mmcavall
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Re: Winter watering

Post by mmcavall »

Also I'm not sure that some months of drought will kill all benefical microbiota. They probably survive?
Also, perhaps a drought stressed plant produces more protective componds them a well watered one? Even when not watered they have lots of water inside , for sure the enough to perform all that is necessary...in fact they can even produce flowers, which are highly "expensive". Who knows if is exactly the drought stress that will signal the plant to produce proteins that protect them against cold? I really dont know but I dont think this is impossible.
LateBloomer
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Re: Winter watering

Post by LateBloomer »

Yes my experience is with warm south Florida winters so I would water without issues and winters often have rains however almost never have temps under 50f or 10C. I do not have experience watering during very cold winters but researching habitat climates of many more “sensitive” cacti I see they have rains even during peak winters.

As for changing seasons I have seasonal changes here in Curitiba but most naive plants are Evergreens. Maybe wrong but google says cacti are evergreens.

A dry period I think is important for the heath of the cacti but in habitat a month long dry actually only happens last month of winter or first month of spring. Winters only have less rain but not completely dry. During summers there is lots of rain in habitat but water drys very quickly due to the heat so perhaps they have nearly equal water intake winter and summer?

Maybe someone knows more with botanical knowledge and not just speculation like me.

BTW do not water in wild weather without very good drainage like @jerrytheplanter shared. I don’t know if this is a good idea but if you have extra seedlings you don’t mind losing to experiments please share with us.
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