The Cal-Mag of my dreams?

Discuss repotting, soil, lighting, fertilizing, watering, etc. in this category.
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Steve Johnson
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Question for Mike

Post by Steve Johnson »

Hi Mike,

Sorry about bringing this up again, but now I'm not at all sure if it's better to use up the remainder of my Dyna-Gro 7-7-7, or go right to the GH FloraMicro and FloraBloom regimen when the collection wakes up from it winter dormancy. Here are all the bloody details:
  • 7-7-7 -- given the dilution rate of 1/2 tsp./gallon, I already know that 46 ppm N is broken down into 14 ppm Ammonium and 32 ppm Nitrate. Mo is 0.0009% -- if I have the math right, that's 3 parts-per-billion. (Don't know if it's relevant, but I just wanted to throw that number out there anyway.)
  • GH FloraMicro -- to match the dilution I'm using for the 7-7-7, the dilution rate would be 3.5mL/gallon (and yes, I have graduated pipettes for that). The difference here -- 3 ppm Ammonium and 43 ppm Nitrate. Mo will be 0.0008% (2.6 ppb).
  • CEC (or lack thereof) is obviously an important factor -- low in pumice and none in granite. From one of the PM conversations you and I had, I think you mentioned adding zeolite to my 60% pumice/40% granite gravel mix so it'll increase CEC. Even though we're talking about only 64 cacti, I'm way too busy with other things, so I'll have to make do with what I've already got. (Man, I need to retire! :lol: )
  • Heat -- not a problem in my part of L.A. As I mentioned to ohugal, daytime highs in the spring are in the 75-85F range, summers generally in the 80s and 90s. Summertime heat waves take the daytime highs up to about 100-105F (even higher in rare instances), although they don't last for more than a week.
  • You mentioned the importance of light levels in previous posts. I live about 10 miles east of the coast, and the marine layer effect tends to produce cloud cover known to us Angelenos as "June gloom" burning off in the late morning/early afternoon. Sometimes we get it, sometimes we don't, but there are more than a few bright sunny days in the spring. In the summer it's always hot and sunny. Prior to last year, I had the entire collection under 40% shade cloth, then I decided to turn my portable greenhouse from temporary (for the November-May rainy season) to permanent. Given the GH's translucent white UV-resistant material, I think this was a good move for a couple of reasons. First, the filtering evens out light levels to eliminate the harsh contrast between light and shadow as the sun moves across the sky -- something that used to kinda bother me when I relied on shade cloth. Second, it protects cacti that are vulnerable to sunscorch during heat waves. (Wish I thought about that a few years ago, and it brings up a story I'll save for anther day.) From the Huntington's desert greenhouse in Pasadena CA:

    IMG_0309.JPG
    IMG_0309.JPG (151.92 KiB) Viewed 685 times
    IMG_0369.JPG
    IMG_0369.JPG (150.75 KiB) Viewed 685 times
    Those photos are a fairly accurate representation of the light levels in there. Although I can only go by general impression, the light levels in my portable GH are about the same. With that said, Pasadena does get hotter in summer.
With all factors under consideration, do you believe there's an advantage to changing from the Dyna-Gro 7-7-7 to the GH ferts, or would I be fine either way?
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MikeInOz
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Re: The Cal-Mag of my dreams?

Post by MikeInOz »

I would stick with the Dyna grow because it has more ammonium. But either one would probably be fine. My cacti get double the ammonium/urea N than Nitrate N. They are growing extremely well. Quite fast but still compact and with good spination. Mammillaria bertoltdii, leuthyi and hermosana have all flowered in their second year. Ariocarpus seedlings also growing fast (for arios). That's the kind of result I'm looking for! They obviously like the ammonium. I would be reluctant to change without a good reason. The osmocote also has much more Mo - 100ppm compared to your practically nothing. Mo is essential if plants are to convert nitrate in their tissues to usable ammonium. You might want give them a boost of Mo a couple of times a year. You should be able to get sodium or ammonium molybdate on ebay. When you use no soil or humus at all in your mix, you cannot leave out a single nutrient and you need to work out the best concentration. That is easy with fast growers like tomato but almost impossible with slow growing plants like cacti and that's another good reason to include some actual soil. Using some soil and/or compost (not sterile peat) in the mix will take the worry out of proper nutrition.
Are those pics of your cacti in the dormant stage? They look a bit ''hard'' (as they should when dormant of course)
Having said all that, your plants look pretty good to me so I would not lose sleep over it. Also some people like their plants to look as if they are growing in the desert. I don't. I like them full of vigor but still with compact growth, tight spines and lots of flowers.
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Steve Johnson
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Re: The Cal-Mag of my dreams?

Post by Steve Johnson »

Hi Mike,

First of all, the photos I just showed you are from the Huntington's desert greenhouse, and I took them on May 5, 2012. From September 15, 2021 -- my collection (such as it is) sitting on my apartment balcony:

Image
Image

The twinwall roof of the portable greenhouse stayed up, then I completed the job by keeping the back and side "curtains" in place after the 2021/22 rainy season, which made the GH permanent last year. (I took the shade cloth down from the plant bench, so I'll do it on the table with the Espostoa lanata, Stenocactus lloydii, etc.) Although you can't see it in my 9/15/21 photos, my reason for showing you the ones from inside the Huntington's desert greenhouse was to let you know that the light levels between here and there are pretty much the same now.

I wish I had known about the Mo deficiency in the 7-7-7's nutrient profile years ago, and now I have to wonder if I'm stuck with a whole bunch of abnormally-growing cacti. If so, I can't undo 11 years of getting it wrong, so all I can do is follow your recommendation on the Sodium or Ammonium molybdate. As far as the proper concentration for the boost you mentioned goes, I'll have to figure that out for myself.
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Steve Johnson
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Re: The Cal-Mag of my dreams?

Post by Steve Johnson »

Over the weekend, I emailed the Scotts people to find out if they might be able offer the Osmocote Cacti & Succulents formulation to US customers in the near future. Here's the response I got:

"Thank you for contacting us, Steve.

Unfortunately, the product you are requesting information about is an Australia-specific product that cannot be sold, purchased, or used in the US. Instead, we would recommend Miracle-Gro Succulent Plant Food which is formulated for acid-loving cacti and succulents.

https://miraclegro.com/en-us/shop/indoo ... 00532.html

Again, thank you for taking the time to contact us. Please let us know if we can be of further assistance."

Thanks for nothing, Scotts -- use their succulent plant food, and it'll be a miracle if the succulents even survive.

I can get 8 oz. of Sodium molybdate from Alpha Chemical through eBay -- guaranteed analysis 39.5% Mo - >99% Pure. Using the Calculate This website calculator, I determined that 1/4 gram per gallon of water yields 26 ppm Mo. I do have a digital scale reading in 10ths of a gram, so I'll be able to measure out .2 or .3 g. If I give my cacti a Molybdenum boost once in June and once in August, would that amount be not enough, too much, or just right? Mike, I realize that comparing your Osmocote to diluting a liquid concentrate may be like comparing apples to dump trucks, but if you have any thoughts on what I have in mind, I sure would appreciate it. And I'm afraid that I'll have to make do with the hydroponic mix for the foreseeable future.
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jerrytheplater
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Re: The Cal-Mag of my dreams?

Post by jerrytheplater »

Steve, some thoughts regarding using extra Mo based on the Australian Osmocote. And how you apply that to your usage. Just a word of caution.

Remember the dosage of Osmocote is dry in each pot. It is applied twice per year. It is released as the pot is watered. The nutrients the prills contain are divided up over 6 months and the number of times the pot is watered. So each watering releases a portion of the fertilizer contained, hopefully in the proportion listed on the label.

You are fertilizing with a dilute solution of Dyna-Gro each time you water. You need to compare the amount of fertilizer released by the Osmocote each watering with the fertilizer you are adding when you water. They may be closer than you think.

I wonder if the Osmocote would deplete faster if you are watering 4 times a week compared to watering 4 times a month. Seems like a no brainer. Does the label give suggestions regarding how often to water? This could give some insight into the concentration of the nutrients each watering.
Jerry Smith
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2012 USDA Hardiness Zone 6b: -5F to OF (-20C to -18C) min.
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Re: The Cal-Mag of my dreams?

Post by keith »

"acid-loving cacti and succulents" wut ??
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Steve Johnson
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Re: The Cal-Mag of my dreams?

Post by Steve Johnson »

jerrytheplater wrote: Tue Jan 24, 2023 12:46 am Steve, some thoughts regarding using extra Mo based on the Australian Osmocote. And how you apply that to your usage. Just a word of caution.

Remember the dosage of Osmocote is dry in each pot. It is applied twice per year. It is released as the pot is watered. The nutrients the prills contain are divided up over 6 months and the number of times the pot is watered. So each watering releases a portion of the fertilizer contained, hopefully in the proportion listed on the label.

You are fertilizing with a dilute solution of Dyna-Gro each time you water. You need to compare the amount of fertilizer released by the Osmocote each watering with the fertilizer you are adding when you water. They may be closer than you think.

I wonder if the Osmocote would deplete faster if you are watering 4 times a week compared to watering 4 times a month. Seems like a no brainer. Does the label give suggestions regarding how often to water? This could give some insight into the concentration of the nutrients each watering.
You're bringing up a really good point, and that's why I mentioned the apples-to-dumptrucks comparison. I don't know how often Mike waters his cacti, and we may be dealing with an unknown variable that can't be measured in terms of the nutrient ppm amounts being released every time he waters. On average, I'm watering and fertilizing my cacti every 2 weeks in spring and summer. The deviations from that average are:
  • Discocactus buenekeri and Melocactus matanzanus -- every 10 days in spring, once a week in summer.
  • Coryphantha retusa, Eriosyce napina glabrescens, E. duripulpa, E. odieri, Gymnocactus ysabelae, Obregonia denegrii, Turbinicarpus (5 species) -- every 3-4 weeks in spring, every 2 weeks in summer.
  • Astrophytum myriostigma, Cephalocereus senilis, Cumarinia odorata, Cumulopuntia fuauxiana, Echinocereus rubispinus, E. viridiflorus canus, Mammillaria grahamii, M. perezdelarosae, Puna clavarioides -- every 2 weeks in spring, every 10 days in summer.
  • Frailea castanea and F. grahliana -- every 2 weeks in spring, once a week in summer.
  • Ariocarpus fissuratus -- every 3-4 weeks in spring, every 2 weeks-10 days in summer
  • Aztekium ritteri (growing on its own roots and doing well, by the way) -- every 3 weeks in late May and June, every 2 weeks in summer.
These watering schedules are well-suited to the climate in my part of L.A., so nothing questionable on that side of things. The questionable part -- are my cacti receiving enough Mo in the feeding they get with their watering? The only way to know would be what they look like plant by plant over time. I'll start posting installments of the 2022 review on my Member Topics thread soon, and all of you are free to critique what you'll see. If everything looks good according to the more experienced members, the Mo they're getting from the Dyna-Gro 7-7-7 could be just right.

While I'm thinking of it, I may just call the Dyna-Gro people tomorrow. I've spoken to them in the past -- unlike the geniuses at Miracle-Gro, the Dyna-Gro folks seem to know what they're doing.
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Steve Johnson
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Re: The Cal-Mag of my dreams?

Post by Steve Johnson »

keith wrote: Tue Jan 24, 2023 2:01 am "acid-loving cacti and succulents" wut ??
Exactly. Go to the Miracle-Gro website and check out my 1-star review:

https://miraclegro.com/en-us/shop/indoo ... 00532.html

I'm the 4th review down. As for the people giving out 4 and 5 star reviews, I'm pretty sure they would sing a different tune after their plants suddenly stall out in a few years.
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Re: The Cal-Mag of my dreams?

Post by jerrytheplater »

Steve, as I was reading and thinking about the Osmocote label I noticed the trace elements are not given as a percent of the fertilizer like Dyna-Gro, but as mg/kg. Does that really mean that for each kilogram of fertilizer, it contains 100 mg or 0.10 gram of Mo for instance? I'd like some confirmation from Mike since he could call the Toll Free Garden Advice line if needed.

If what I've said is correct, then for a 6" pot Osmocote says to use 1 Tbl, which they convert to 15 grams. That would mean that one Tablespoon contains 0.0015 grams Mo. Divide that by the number of times its watered, 2x/month for 6 months is 12 waterings. 0.0015 gm/12= 0.000125 gm Mo per watering. Edit Jan 24, 2023: That is 125 ppb Mo per watering. That statement is incorrect. All I calculated was the weight of Mo per watering. I can't give a concentration because I don't know how much is being watered. I can assume a volume per watering as an educated guess, which I'll do in a following post. This calculation assumes the fertilizer is completely consumed by the waterings stated. Is that correct? I don't know. Mo per watering will be less if it is not all consumed.

The concentration of Mo in the Dyna-Gro 7-7-7 solution mixed at 1/2 tsp/gal is 0.006 ppm or 6 ppb in the watering solution. It is a lot less than the Osmocote. But, at least it is a constant. Again, if I am correct in understanding the Osmocote label. If I am, then the question is: how significant is the difference between the two?
Last edited by jerrytheplater on Tue Jan 24, 2023 3:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Steve Johnson
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Re: The Cal-Mag of my dreams?

Post by Steve Johnson »

jerrytheplater wrote: Tue Jan 24, 2023 3:54 amThe concentration of Mo in the Dyna-Gro 7-7-7 solution mixed at 1/2 tsp/gal is 0.006 ppm or 6 ppb in the watering solution. It is a lot less than the Osmocote. But, at least it is a constant. Again, if I am correct in understanding the Osmocote label. If I am, then the question is: how significant is the difference between the two?
If your calculations are right, the difference between 6 ppb and 125 ppb is very significant. It's pretty clear to me that any amount of Sodium molybdate going right into a gallon of watering solution would be a big mistake, so I think we'd be looking at -- guess what? A stock solution. From there, it'll be a matter of figuring out how much Sodium molybdate stock solution should go into a gallon of watering solution. I wouldn't want to ask you for any calculations yet, so let's see if Mike can confirm your calculation of 125 ppb Mo being released by the Osmocote every time he waters his cacti. And if he does, I'd like to try and do the calculations myself -- my aging brain could use the exercise anyway. By the way, the Calculate This website's ppm calculator sure helps now that I know how to use it.

Something else to consider -- what is the ppb (not ppm) release rate of Nitrate in Mike's Osmocote? If I know the NO3-Mo ppb ratio, I can find the target numbers for a Sodium molybdate stock solution and the right amount of stock solution going into the watering solution diluting 1/2 tsp. 7-7-7 per gallon.
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Re: The Cal-Mag of my dreams?

Post by jerrytheplater »

Steve Johnson wrote: Tue Jan 24, 2023 5:16 am
jerrytheplater wrote: Tue Jan 24, 2023 3:54 amThe concentration of Mo in the Dyna-Gro 7-7-7 solution mixed at 1/2 tsp/gal is 0.006 ppm or 6 ppb in the watering solution. It is a lot less than the Osmocote. But, at least it is a constant. Again, if I am correct in understanding the Osmocote label. If I am, then the question is: how significant is the difference between the two?
If your calculations are right, the difference between 6 ppb and Edit Jan 24, 2023: As I wrote above in the post this quote refers to, I can't give this "125 ppb" as a concentration. All I calculated above is 0.000125 gram Mo per watering.125 ppb is very significant. It's pretty clear to me that any amount of Sodium molybdate going right into a gallon of watering solution would be a big mistake, so I think we'd be looking at -- guess what? A stock solution. From there, it'll be a matter of figuring out how much Sodium molybdate stock solution should go into a gallon of watering solution. I wouldn't want to ask you for any calculations yet, so let's see if Mike can confirm your calculation of 125 ppb Mo being released by the Osmocote every time he waters his cacti. And if he does, I'd like to try and do the calculations myself -- my aging brain could use the exercise anyway. By the way, the Calculate This website's ppm calculator sure helps now that I know how to use it.

Something else to consider -- what is the ppb (not ppm) release rate of Nitrate in Mike's Osmocote? If I know the NO3-Mo ppb ratio, I can find the target numbers for a Sodium molybdate stock solution and the right amount of stock solution going into the watering solution diluting 1/2 tsp. 7-7-7 per gallon.
When I asked about the significance of the difference between the two fertilizers, it was not because of the obvious numerical difference. The question refers to how much Mo is needed by plants. If 6 ppb is enough, then Edit Jan 24, 2023: As I wrote above in the post this quote refers to, I can't give this "125 ppb" as a concentration. All I calculated above is 0.000125 gram Mo per watering. 125 ppb is a waste-and there could be toxicity issues. I know a grower of bedding plants that experienced damage to the plants due to too much Boron in the well water. They had to have Boron free fertilizers. And they had to hook up to city water. I forget the amount of Boron in their water, but it was in the single digit ppm range if I'm not mistaken.

Remember, my calculation of Edit Jan 24, 2023: As I wrote above in the post this quote refers to, I can't give this "125 ppb" as a concentration. All I calculated above is 0.000125 gram Mo per watering. 125 ppb Mo is based on a watering assumption of 12 waterings to total exhaustion of the fertilizer in the prills and can vary widely. The answer should come from Osmocote. But, using the same assumption for the Nitrogen forms, the amounts delivered per watering are:

Sample Osmocote calculation:
Ammonium Nitrogen (NH4-N) is 4.3%, which is 43,000 ppm N as NH4. 43,000 gm NH4-N/1,000,000 gm fertilizer = X gm NH4-N/15 gm fertilizer. X= 0.645 gm NH4-N.
How much NH4-N per watering?: 0.645 gm NH4-N/12 waterings = 0.05375 gm NH4-N per watering.

Elemental Nitrogen as Ammonium: 0.05375 grams N as Ammonium per watering.
Elemental Nitrogen as Nitrate: 0.0475 grams N as Nitrate per watering.
Elemental Nitrogen as Urea: 0.0475 grams N as Urea per watering.


When I take those numbers above and calculate the percentage of total N in the fertilizer, I come up with 11.9%. That is due to rounding errors in the label as reported. 3.8% could be 3.85% and still be reported as 3.8% legitimately.
Last edited by jerrytheplater on Tue Jan 24, 2023 4:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The Cal-Mag of my dreams?

Post by jerrytheplater »

I have to check my numbers again. Think I made a mistake. Have to eat first!!
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Re: The Cal-Mag of my dreams?

Post by jerrytheplater »

As I edited in red in the above posts concerning the number of 125 ppb as the concentration of Mo delivered per watering. That is incorrect since I don't know the volume of water being applied to each pot. All I can calculate for the Osmocote is the weight released per watering with all of the assumptions stated above: total exhaustion of the prills containing the fertilizer after 12 waterings. (Does that sound correct? I doubt it. Osmocote must have done some testing to see how much fertilizer is left after X number of waterings. They do give a lifespan of 6 months. That must be based on some assumptions not stated on their label.)

Let's assume a 15 cm or 6" pot receives 125 ml fertilizer water for Dyna-Gro per watering and 125 ml rain water for Osmocote per watering.

Dyna-Gro contains 0.006 mg Mo per liter fertilizing water. We are assuming 125 ml fertilizing water. (0.006 mg Mo/1000 ml = X mg Mo/125 ml fertilizing water.) Total Mo in a watering of Dyna-Gro is 0.00075 mg Mo.

Osmocote contains 1.5 mg Mo in 15 grams of fertilizer dosed to the 15 cm pot. Assume 12 waterings to full depletion: 1.5 mg/12= 0.125 mg Mo per watering. That is the comparison between the two fertilizers. Osmocote delivers 167 times as much Mo as Dyna-Gro per watering.

Edit: Now I see we need to calculate the total N for the two fertilizers and set them equal to see what effect that has on Mo amounts. Dyna-Gro is being watered at 46 ppm total N in the watering solution. This is 5.75 mg Total N per watering. Osmocote contains 0.14875 grams Total N per watering in our example. A huge difference. Osmocote is delivering 25.87 times as much Total N per watering as the Dyna-Gro is. That number alone makes me wonder if my assumptions are valid. That is equivalent to a Dyna-Gro solution of 1190 ppm N. At that rate, the Mo would be 0.153 mg/liter. The amount per watering would be: 0.153 mg Mo/1000 ml = X mg Mo/125 ml fertilizing water. Total Mo in a watering of the equalized Dyna-Gro is 0.019125 mg Mo per watering. Still less than the Osmocote, but closer. Osmocote contains 6.5 times as much Mo than the equalized Dyna-Gro.

We are assuming the Osmocote pot is being watered with 125 ml of rain water. If there were no fertilizer in the pot, what would be the concentration of the water needed to deliver 0.125 mg Mo per 125 ml fertilizer water used? 0.125 mg Mo/125 ml water=X mg Mo/1000 ml water. X = 1.0 mg Mo per liter or a fertilizer solution of 1 ppm Mo.

My question still remains: how much Mo do plants require? Is the difference between the two fertilizers really significant such that the Dyna-Gro is woefully low? Or is the Osmocote excessively high? Obviously Mike says his plants are thriving with Osmocote. Steve now doubts the condition of his plants and wants us to judge when he posts pictures of them. Is it worth supplementing the Dyna-Gro with more Mo? Lot's of questions that need a good answer.
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2012 USDA Hardiness Zone 6b: -5F to OF (-20C to -18C) min.
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Re: The Cal-Mag of my dreams?

Post by jerrytheplater »

My head is spinning and my computer is overheating and I need to get other things done.
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2012 USDA Hardiness Zone 6b: -5F to OF (-20C to -18C) min.
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Re: The Cal-Mag of my dreams?

Post by keith »

That is easy with fast growers like tomato but almost impossible with slow growing plants like cacti and that's another good reason to include some actual soil. Using some soil and/or compost (not sterile peat) in the mix will take the worry out of proper nutrition. "

That's what I do but I don't buy loam at the store last stuff I looked at had added redwood and mushroom compost .

Miracle grow succulent plant food NPK (O.5-1-1) Use on all cacti and succulents. its just water waste of money.

I tested my desert soil its has a high PH 8 , low nitrogen and high Phosphorus and Medium high potassium. Trace elements I cant test for them but assume they are there. Its very sandy and volcanic in origin.

"What is the soil like in the Mojave Desert?
Mojave Desert soils range in pH from 8.0-8.4 on average. Micronutrients include boron, chlorine, copper, iron, manganese, molybdenum, cobalt and zinc. Fertilizer recommendations are based on soil tests and are customized for soil conditions and plant/crop needs. "
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