The Cal-Mag of my dreams?

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SDK1
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Re: The Cal-Mag of my dreams?

Post by SDK1 »

That effing Stone Eaters article. Whatever it contributes to furthering our collective understanding of how cacti grow in situ, it's done just as much towards hindering our collective understanding of nutrient management for cacti in cultivation. Dweebs of the highest order, ones who just got their hands on their first Lophophora or Trichocereus, will come crawling out of the woodwork to quote the Stone Eaters as if it's Scripture on other cacti forums I've visited. It's late and I've got nothing of value to add right now, just up feeding the little one. That article just irritates me to no end.
5b/6a - Indiana. Half the year growing outdoors, half the year indoors.

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Steve Johnson
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Re: The Cal-Mag of my dreams?

Post by Steve Johnson »

After looking again at the orchid fert my mother uses, I'm not so impressed now. Such being the case, I'll revisit the General Hydroponics FloraMicro and FloraBloom I had in mind to replace the Dyna-Gro 7-7-7:

FloraMicro-FloraBloom.jpg
FloraMicro-FloraBloom.jpg (83.55 KiB) Viewed 3311 times
Oddly enough, I have a pound of Ammonium sulfate I bought in 2012, and I suddenly realized that the right amount of it would do 2 things:
  • Add some NH4 to the NH4 provided by the FloraMicro.
  • Reduce the amount of P in relation to N -- I believe this would be more in line with Mike's recommendation to go with P somewhere around 0.25 to 0.35.
Question for Jerry -- if I add some Ammonium sulfate to my Potassium sulfate stock solution, will it form a precipitate? If it does, will it form a precipitate in a Sodium molybdate stock solution? If either one of these combinations do not form a precipitate, I'll do some math and figure out the right amount of Ammonium sulfate.

The more time I spend pursuing this, the less confident I am about ever finding an off-the-shelf all-in-one fertilizer that covers all nutrients in the right amounts ideal for cacti. Of course the Osmocote Cacti & Succulents slow release fert would be perfect -- and you'll never get it unless you live in Australia.
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Steve Johnson
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Re: The Cal-Mag of my dreams?

Post by Steve Johnson »

SDK1 wrote: Sun Feb 19, 2023 7:31 am That effing Stone Eaters article. Whatever it contributes to furthering our collective understanding of how cacti grow in situ, it's done just as much towards hindering our collective understanding of nutrient management for cacti in cultivation. Dweebs of the highest order, ones who just got their hands on their first Lophophora or Trichocereus, will come crawling out of the woodwork to quote the Stone Eaters as if it's Scripture on other cacti forums I've visited. It's late and I've got nothing of value to add right now, just up feeding the little one. That article just irritates me to no end.
Okay, tell us what you really think. :lol: Dig this quote from Dag Panco's article:

Xerophilia_2018_page_87.jpg
Xerophilia_2018_page_87.jpg (56.03 KiB) Viewed 3306 times
"A fertile soil will force them [cacti] to grow up to the maximum limit of their of their genetic potential" -- read "most hobbyists are idiots who don't know what they're doing". Talk about irritating! I could go on, but Mike nailed it when he pointed out the ignorance in Panco's article.
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Steve Johnson
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Re: The Cal-Mag of my dreams?

Post by Steve Johnson »

Steve Johnson wrote: Sun Feb 19, 2023 8:07 amQuestion for Jerry -- if I add some Ammonium sulfate to my Potassium sulfate stock solution, will it form a precipitate? If it does, will it form a precipitate in a Sodium molybdate stock solution? If either one of these combinations do not form a precipitate, I'll do some math and figure out the right amount of Ammonium sulfate.
Okay, time to learn a little chemistry...

Ammonium sulfate is (NH4)2SO4 and Potassium sulfate is K2SO4. When we go here...

https://chem.libretexts.org/Courses/Cit ... lity_Rules

...we'll get some handy-dandy information including this:

Ammonium_sulfate-Potassium_sulfate_solubility.jpg
Ammonium_sulfate-Potassium_sulfate_solubility.jpg (28.25 KiB) Viewed 3294 times
That's it -- I can add Ammonium sulfate to either stock solution without a problem. My mission for today (which I will accept) -- calculate the right amount of Ammonium sulfate going into a Potassium sulfate or Sodium molybdate stock solution. I'll have to do further calculations on the right amount going into a watering solution that includes the GH FloraMicro and FloraBloom ferts. If y'all wouldn't mind accepting the end result without me making you suffer through the math exercise to get there, I'll post the "recipe" with its ingredients and the nutrient PPM numbers you'll get in your watering solution -- by the gallon for our US members, and by the liter for everyone else.
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Steve Johnson
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Re: The Cal-Mag of my dreams?

Post by Steve Johnson »

Mission accomplished...

After a lot of calculation (with a bit of trial and error involved), I determined that a 1-gallon stock solution containing 5 grams of Ammonium sulfate and 10 grams of Potassium sulfate should be a good fit for the GH FloraMicro and FloraBloom ferts. Here are the numbers:
  • The FloraMicro and FloraBloom combined give us an even 5-5-5, true NPK values are 5-2.18-4.15. Diluting at 1/2 tsp. per gallon, we get 5% N x 10,000 = 50,000 ppm/1536 = 32.6 ppm, 2.18% P x 10,000 = 21,800/1536 = 14.2 ppm, and 4.15% K x 10,000 = 41,500/1536 = 27.02 ppm in a gallon of watering solution.
  • A gallon of the Ammonium sulfate-Potassium sulfate stock solution contains 362 ppm NH4 (although I think that should be (NH4)2 or 2NH4 -- not sure about the chem terminology here), 1182 ppm K, and 803 ppm S.
The only problem with the FloraMicro is that it contains only 2 ppm NH4, the rest being NO3. We'll compare that with 1/2 tsp. Dyna-Gro 7-7-7 containing 14 ppm NH4 and 32 ppm NO3 -- I understand why Ohugal was concerned about the NH4-NO3 imbalance in the FloraMicro. Now let's see if we can do something about that...

Add 5 fluid ounces of Ammonium sulfate-Potassium sulfate stock solution to the gallon of dilute FloraMicro-FloraBloom watering solution, and here's what we get as a final dosage including N, P, K, Ca, Mg, S -- and yes, Mo:
  • 16 ppm NH4 and 31 ppm NO3 for a total of 47 ppm N -- amount and balance are comparable to the Dyna-Gro 7-7-7. P = 14 ppm, K = 73 ppm, Ca = 33 ppm, Mg = 10 ppm, and S = 38 ppm. I'll be adding 2 tsp. of the Sodium molybdate stock solution I discussed in previous posts, so that gives us 0.059 ppm Mo -- just a touch over the .05 ppm Mike recommended.
Applying N as a constant of 1, the NPK ratio is 1-0.3-1.6 -- as close to ideal as I can get, and I have a feeling that I won't be using Dyna-Gro anymore.

The growing season here in SoCal is still at least a month away, so now would be a good time to ask Mike a couple of questions:
  • You said that Sulfur toxicity in cacti is remarkably rare, and I can't imagine that 38 ppm S per feeding would be a problem. Do you agree?
  • If you do agree that 38 ppm S per feeding is fine, should Ca be higher than S?
If so, it makes a good argument in favor of adding 1/4 tsp. (maybe 1/2 tsp.?) CalMag to a gallon of watering solution. Any recommendation you have on that would be greatly appreciated.

Ohugal -- the more I think about it, the less thrilled I am about the amount of P in the Dyna-Gro 7-8-6. If I convert the calculations from US to metric, I can give you the recipe for an Ammonium sulfate-Potassium sulfate stock solution that'll work with the TA FloraMicro and FloraBloom. What you'll get is the right NH4-NO3 balance and lower P in the overall balance.
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MikeInOz
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Re: The Cal-Mag of my dreams?

Post by MikeInOz »

Steve Johnson wrote: Sun Feb 19, 2023 8:07 am
- if I add some Ammonium sulfate to my Potassium sulfate stock solution, will it form a precipitate? e.

No because there because there is nothing for the sulphate to bind with. It should form a clear solution (depending on how concentrated you make it)
Every compound will have limits to how much you can dissolve in a given amount to water.
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jerrytheplater
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Re: The Cal-Mag of my dreams?

Post by jerrytheplater »

MikeInOz wrote: Sat Feb 18, 2023 12:42 am The trial for African violets showed flowering decreasing by 50% when the N/P ratio was increased from 0.14 to 0.44. If we stick to somewhere around 0.25 to 0.35 more or less, there will be no problems.
Mike

I just skimmed the two articles Steve posted looking for African Violet trials. I didn't see anything about them. I'm thinking you must be writing about information from another source: perhaps from the book you referenced before?

Would you mind pointing me to where that information is located? Thanks.
Jerry Smith
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MikeInOz
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Re: The Cal-Mag of my dreams?

Post by MikeInOz »

jerrytheplater wrote: Tue Feb 21, 2023 3:12 am
MikeInOz wrote: Sat Feb 18, 2023 12:42 am The trial for African violets showed flowering decreasing by 50% when the N/P ratio was increased from 0.14 to 0.44. If we stick to somewhere around 0.25 to 0.35 more or less, there will be no problems.
Mike

I just skimmed the two articles Steve posted looking for African Violet trials. I didn't see anything about them. I'm thinking you must be writing about information from another source: perhaps from the book you referenced before?

Would you mind pointing me to where that information is located? Thanks.
Hi Jerry
It's not an article. It was just a table showing the findings of a trial. Yes it was from the same book. I posted a copy of it on this page...
viewtopic.php?p=379772&hilit=phosphorus#p379772
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jerrytheplater
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Re: The Cal-Mag of my dreams?

Post by jerrytheplater »

MikeInOz wrote: Tue Feb 21, 2023 3:46 am
jerrytheplater wrote: Tue Feb 21, 2023 3:12 am
MikeInOz wrote: Sat Feb 18, 2023 12:42 am The trial for African violets showed flowering decreasing by 50% when the N/P ratio was increased from 0.14 to 0.44. If we stick to somewhere around 0.25 to 0.35 more or less, there will be no problems.
Mike

I just skimmed the two articles Steve posted looking for African Violet trials. I didn't see anything about them. I'm thinking you must be writing about information from another source: perhaps from the book you referenced before?

Would you mind pointing me to where that information is located? Thanks.
Hi Jerry
It's not an article. It was just a table showing the findings of a trial. Yes it was from the same book. I posted a copy of it on this page...
viewtopic.php?p=379772&hilit=phosphorus#p379772
Thanks Mike.
Jerry Smith
Bloomingdale, NJ
45 inches (114 cm) rain equivalent per year, approx. evenly spread per month
2012 USDA Hardiness Zone 6b: -5F to OF (-20C to -18C) min.
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ohugal
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Re: The Cal-Mag of my dreams?

Post by ohugal »

Hey Steve,

I'm having great difficulty obtaining Dyna-Gro products here in Europe. The U.K. dealer doesn't export and the Norwegian dealer isn't responding to my request anymore. So, if the GH/TA fertilizer is still on the table, I'll go with that. A while ago Jerry already suggested I balance out Ammonium and Nitrate nitrogen with Ammonium sulfate. If you don't mind giving me the stock solutions formulas, they're always welcome! I'm currently preparing a few things for the small greenhouse and it's busy at work, so all the help is welcome. Will you also include it in your 'fertilizers explained' post?
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Steve Johnson
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Re: The Cal-Mag of my dreams?

Post by Steve Johnson »

ohugal wrote: Tue Feb 21, 2023 7:57 am Hey Steve,

I'm having great difficulty obtaining Dyna-Gro products here in Europe. The U.K. dealer doesn't export and the Norwegian dealer isn't responding to my request anymore. So, if the GH/TA fertilizer is still on the table, I'll go with that. A while ago Jerry already suggested I balance out Ammonium and Nitrate nitrogen with Ammonium sulfate. If you don't mind giving me the stock solutions formulas, they're always welcome! I'm currently preparing a few things for the small greenhouse and it's busy at work, so all the help is welcome. Will you also include it in your 'fertilizers explained' post?
Absolutely -- I think different fertilizer and supplement "recipes" would be helpful, so I'll PM you and include the one I put together a few days ago for my presentation. While I don't think covering every fert out there would be possible, we can build to the list of "recipes" as other ferts come up in conversation on the forum. By the way, whenever I put them together, I'll post all of the instructions in US and metric measures. Yours should be coming up over the weekend if not before then.
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keith
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Re: The Cal-Mag of my dreams?

Post by keith »

Lots of info here on this topic . I saw a youtube professor explain 3 types of rocks

Igneous rocks are formed from melted rock deep inside the Earth.
Sedimentary rocks are formed from layers of sand, silt, dead plants, and animal skeletons.
Metamorphic rocks formed from other rocks that are changed by heat and pressure underground.

Sedimentary rocks low in minerals and the calcium often blocks the minerals and growing on these soils or rocks are found many interesting cactus.

Igneous rocks have allot of minerals way better for farming. Granite is Igneous .

Metamorphic rocks I'm guessing is where diamonds are found ?
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ohugal
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Re: The Cal-Mag of my dreams?

Post by ohugal »

Biobizz CalMag is available in Europe and does not contain nitrogen for those who are interested. In an email they wrote: "Biobizz Calmag is a mix of calcium and magnesium stabilized with organic matter instead of nitrogen bases. This organic matter is mainly humic acids, which are always a nice add in any organic grow, as they help with nutrient absorption and transport. All these ingredients are 100% certified as natural, as there isn’t any chemical or artificial substance added to the product." I'm trying to find to find out what the ratio is, but after having asked them 2 times, I think they don't know. Is there a way to test this?
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Steve Johnson
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Re: The Cal-Mag of my dreams?

Post by Steve Johnson »

ohugal wrote: Tue Aug 29, 2023 6:12 am Biobizz CalMag is available in Europe and does not contain nitrogen for those who are interested. In an email they wrote: "Biobizz Calmag is a mix of calcium and magnesium stabilized with organic matter instead of nitrogen bases. This organic matter is mainly humic acids, which are always a nice add in any organic grow, as they help with nutrient absorption and transport. All these ingredients are 100% certified as natural, as there isn’t any chemical or artificial substance added to the product." I'm trying to find to find out what the ratio is, but after having asked them 2 times, I think they don't know. Is there a way to test this?
Not that I'm aware of, and it's the manufacturer's responsibility to disclose the percentages of Ca and Mg on the label anyway. If Biobizz can't tell you exactly what's in their product, I don't think you should use it.
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ohugal
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Re: The Cal-Mag of my dreams?

Post by ohugal »

I’m a bit astounded as well they don’t know exactly what’s in there. I asked them again. Perhaps they are a bit slow, I dunno.
Location
Antwerp, Belgium
temperate, maritime climate with mild winters and cool summers
hardiness zone 8a
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