A Mammillaria mutant or what?

If you have a cactus plant and need help identifying it, this is the place to post it.
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mmcavall
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A Mammillaria mutant or what?

Post by mmcavall »

These two plants were grown from seeds of Mammillaria sheldonii. They are different from the other plants (normal sheldoniis) of the same batch.
What are they? Mutants? Other thing?
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The flowers never open...they keep this way, always
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These are the normal sheldonii of the same batch:
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Thanks!
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mmcavall
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Re: A Mammillaria mutant or what?

Post by mmcavall »

Ok...thats annoying...any time I upload pictures , the first one appears like an abstract thing...

Let me try again the first picture:
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A_G_R
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Re: A Mammillaria mutant or what?

Post by A_G_R »

Nice!! Looks like you have M sheldonii brevispina ;-)
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Steve Johnson
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Re: A Mammillaria mutant or what?

Post by Steve Johnson »

Actually, I kinda like the abstract! :lol:

Nothing against M. sheldonii, but it looks too much like other Mammillaria species. On the other hand, that M. sheldonii brevispina is an absolute gem. Lucky you! :D
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mmcavall
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Re: A Mammillaria mutant or what?

Post by mmcavall »

Thanks for the replies

So "brevispina" is a condition that can happen to any species, such as monstrose, crested or variegated? Is it a mutation?

Or some species have the variety "brevispina"?

Wow...~6 years in the forum and I never payed attention to brevispinas...very happy to have this information now...thanks!
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mmcavall
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Re: A Mammillaria mutant or what?

Post by mmcavall »

If I cross these two plants the offspring will be brevispina? Sure I will try it
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Steve Johnson
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Re: A Mammillaria mutant or what?

Post by Steve Johnson »

Llifle is my go-to for cactus identification, and M. sheldonii brevispina isn't being recognized there. Not being recognized anywhere else on the Web either, so I think it must be a cultivar. Mutation is a natural process -- since humans are a part of the natural world, why not enjoy the beautiful results when we have a hand in it?
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DaveW
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Re: A Mammillaria mutant or what?

Post by DaveW »

All botanical names of plants need to be validly published according to the "Rules" of Botanical Nomenclature otherwise they are simply known as nomina nuda = "naked name" meaning an invalid name. These often appear in nurserymen's catalogues but never get officially published,

"In taxonomy, a nomen nudum ('naked name'; plural nomina nuda) is a designation which looks exactly like a scientific name of an organism, and may have originally been intended to be one, but it has not been validly published with an adequate description. This makes it a "bare" or "naked" name, which cannot be accepted as it stands."

When the "Rules" first started catalogue names were retrospectively accepted as valid, but later all names from I think 1935 onwards had to be published in a printed scientific publication with a Latin Diagnosis to be valid. Later rules required a type specimen to be deposited at a recognised herbarium. This type specimen had to be a dead preserved plant and could not be a still living one in a collection, which is why some of Curt Backeberg's names were invalid.

The latest change is they can now also be published in electronic as well as printed media, therefore can also be published in online journals.

Recently the requirement for a Latin Diagnosis has been modified to accept a diagnosis in either English or Latin that then can be followed by the language of the publication concerned.

These periodic changes to the "Rules" do not alter what has gone before, meaning the plant has to be validly published according to the "Rules" at the time of publication. Therefore an English diagnosis will not validate any plants previously published without a Latin diagnosis. In other words the "Rules" are not retrospective, only applying to publication from then on.
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mmcavall
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Re: A Mammillaria mutant or what?

Post by mmcavall »

Ok...so... is it a mutant (which I really enjoy) and not "formally " named as brevispina, although this could be a good name for it...
Did I get it right?

It is curious to have two plants with the same mutation. Which makes me think of the original source (which I dont know).

I'll try to cut or open the petals and pollinate the two plants
SDK1
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Re: A Mammillaria mutant or what?

Post by SDK1 »

I believe the proper way of naming it would be to call it Mammillaria sheldonii f. brevispina. A form/forma modifier is typically used to denote characteristics that show up sporadically within populations of plants.

Sometimes these traits can be more predictably transferred from parent to offspring through selective breeding but I don't think the inermis (lacking spines entirely) mutation and brevispinus (short spines) mutation reliably transfer from parent to offspring. However, with two cacti from the same batch of seed, both exhibiting the same mutation your odds could be higher so I would definitely try to give it a shot. The flowers not opening all the way is peculiar though. Does any fruit form after the flowers wither and dry? It would be quite something if they are also cleistogamous.

Regardless of them being cleistogamous, it may take more heat/light to convince the flowers to open compared to the normal spined form. If there's any way for you to increase those two factors, I'd give it a shot as well. Very cool plants, and well grown too.
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DaveW
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Re: A Mammillaria mutant or what?

Post by DaveW »

I believe forma is still a legitimate botanical rank that needs legal publication under the "Rules"? Therefore it would be better to treat it as a cultivar Mammillaria sheldonii 'Brevispina'. A cultivar name should have a capital initial letter and be in single quotes and not in italics = 'Brevispina' to indicate a cultivated not a legitimate botanical form.

However I believe there is still a legal rigmarole to effectively publish cultivars too. However most simply go around as invalid names just as nomina nuda for species do in nurserymen's lists.

"International Cultivar Registration Authorities (ICRAs), representing agricultural, forestry and horticultural disciplines, are appointed by the Commission for Cultivar Registration of the International Society for Horticultural Science (ISHS) and are to operate within the provisions of the International Code of Nomenclature for Cultivated Plants (ICNCP)."

https://www.ishs.org/nomenclature-and-c ... /cultivars
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7george
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Re: A Mammillaria mutant or what?

Post by 7george »

These spines: they just mess with the flowers, ha? Trim them all! :lol:
If your cacti mess in your job just forget about the job.
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MrXeric
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Re: A Mammillaria mutant or what?

Post by MrXeric »

Neat little mutants. Interesting that two appeared from the same source. It would be even more interesting if those two breed true to seed. :)
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