Fertilizers explained (2-part presentation) -- with 6/2023 update

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Re: Fertilizers explained (2-part presentation)

Post by jerrytheplater »

jerrytheplater wrote: Fri Feb 24, 2023 11:30 pm
Steve Johnson wrote: Wed Feb 22, 2023 8:08 am Just a followup thought here...

There are a few species in my collection that are mature enough to flower but never have (or at least not as they should):
  • Tephrocactus articulatus papyracanthus from the California Cactus Center purchased in June 2011 -- no flowers yet.
  • Tephro inermis also from the CCC purchased in May 2012 -- no flowers yet.
  • Coryphantha hesteri from Miles' To Go received in July 2013 -- came ready-made with a set of 5 buds that went into bloom. 2 flowers in August 2014, after that no buds at all.
  • Copiapoa laui from CoronaCactus Nursery received in July 2013 -- 1 big beautiful flower in October 2014, and that's it.
  • Ariocarpus fissuratus also from CoronaCactus -- blooms every other year, and November 2022 was the latest. Could be normal for the species, but if it flowers again after a growing season of lower P at 0.3 this November...
There may be other factors that explain the lack of flowering in these plants, but if they bloom with the lower P, I don't think it'll be a coincidence. Only one way to find out, and we have a lot waiting time between now and the end of the year.
I have read that Tephrocactus can be shy to bloom. It will be interesting to see if your planned reduce P does anything.
I also recently read that some Tephrocactus come from areas with winter temperatures at or below freezing. If so, maybe they need that cold in order to bloom. I left mine in a barely heated greenhouse this winter. They don't show signs of waking up yet. I wonder if they'll bloom. They are only three or four segments long.
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Re: Fertilizers explained (2-part presentation)

Post by Steve Johnson »

Is it just me, or do most growers have trouble understanding this?
jerrytheplater wrote: Fri Mar 10, 2023 6:25 pm Here is the product label from an English website. I was not able to see a Derived From statement on the Italian site or the product sheet. http://www.royalagroscience.com/en/powd ... 0-301.html

Guaranteed Content (W / W)
Total Nitrogen (N) 15%
Nitrate Nitrogen (N) 8,50%
Ammonia Nitrogen (N) 4%
Urea Nitrogen (N) 2,5%
Water Soluble Phosphorus PentaOxide (P2O5) 10%
Water Soluble Potassium Oxide (K2O) 30%
Water Soluble Sulfur tri oxide (SO3) 5%
Physical Information
pH 4 - 5 (in 10% solution)
EC 1,781 mS / cm (1 g / lt)
Guess I'm confused again. ](*,) Let's compare notes between what you see above and guaranteed analysis of the only fert I have experience with:

Dyna-Gro_7-7-7_specs04.jpg
Dyna-Gro_7-7-7_specs04.jpg (40.01 KiB) Viewed 3050 times
Learning a little something from Salinas Valley Agriculture -- for Nitrate (NO3)-Nitrate-nitrogen (NO3-N) conversion, multiply by 0.225. I take Dyna-Gro's 4.9% Nitrate (NO3) to mean that the actual Nitrate-N is 1.08%. Since the Ammoniacal (NH4) is 2.1%, I multiply that by 0.7765 and get 1.63% Ammonium-N. Nitrate-N + Ammonium-N = 2.71%, so how can there be 7% nitrogen available to the plant? Only answer that makes sense to me -- Dyna-Gro's products are badly mislabeled, and they should be labeling the percentages by Nitrate-N and Ammonium-N, not Nitrate and Ammoniacal. I didn't know the difference before, but I sure do
now -- General Hydroponics appears to get the labeling right...

FloraMicro-FloraBloom.jpg
FloraMicro-FloraBloom.jpg (83.55 KiB) Viewed 3050 times
...or at least partially right. If I was the manufacturer, I'd change the label to state 0.3% Ammonium-N and 4.7% Nitrate-N. (Maybe I'm being being nit-picky, but I tend to be that way sometimes.) I take GH's FloraMicro label to mean that 0.3% Ammoniacal Nitrogen is the true amount of N available to the plant, and 4.7% Nitrate Nitrogen is also the true amount of N available to the plant -- total amount of N available = 5%. If GH has it right and Dyna-Gro has it wrong, I'd sure like to know. What are your thoughts on this, Jerry?
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Re: Fertilizers explained (2-part presentation)

Post by MikeInOz »

Steve Johnson wrote: Fri Mar 10, 2023 8:09 am

Total nitrogen (N) 15%,
Nitric nitrogen (N) 8.5%,
Nitrogen (N) ammoniacal 4%,
Nitrogen (N) urea 2.5%,

Phosphorus pentoxide (P2O5) soluble in neutral ammonium citrate and in water 10%,
Phosphorus pentoxide (P2O5) soluble in water 10%,
[Not sure why it's listed twice.]

Potassium oxide (K2O) soluble in water 30%,

Sulfur trioxide (SO3) soluble in water 5%,
Boron (B) soluble in water 0.02%,
Copper (Cu) soluble in water 0.02%,
Copper (Cu) chelated with EDTA 0.02%,
Iron (Fe) soluble in water 0.05%,
Iron ( Fe) chelated with EDTA 0.05%,
Manganese (Mn) soluble in water 0.02%,
Manganese (Mn) chelated with EDTA 0.02%,
Molybdenum (Mo) soluble in water 0.01%,
Zinc (Zn) water soluble 0.02%,
Zinc (Zn) chelated with EDTA 0.02%

This is a dry fert, and I'm recommending 0.4 grams per liter for the watering solution. If you and Mike could do an evaluation including the ppm numbers, it'll tell us whether or not Davide will be getting what I think he's getting -- a fert with everything all in one bag, no stock solution required. All that's missing is Ca, but he can add limestone or gypsum to his mix depending on species.
No Ca or Mg. This kind of fertilizer is for use where the water contains sufficient quantities of Ca/Mg. In my case I need to add them because my water is very pure. If you use rain water also, this fertilizer is not good enough. Ca is easy enough to add as gypsum but Mg needs to be added as MgSO4.
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Re: Fertilizers explained (2-part presentation)

Post by jerrytheplater »

Steve Johnson wrote: Fri Mar 10, 2023 11:46 pm Is it just me, or do most growers have trouble understanding this?
jerrytheplater wrote: Fri Mar 10, 2023 6:25 pm Here is the product label from an English website. I was not able to see a Derived From statement on the Italian site or the product sheet. http://www.royalagroscience.com/en/powd ... 0-301.html

Guaranteed Content (W / W)
Total Nitrogen (N) 15%
Nitrate Nitrogen (N) 8,50%
Ammonia Nitrogen (N) 4%
Urea Nitrogen (N) 2,5%
Water Soluble Phosphorus PentaOxide (P2O5) 10%
Water Soluble Potassium Oxide (K2O) 30%
Water Soluble Sulfur tri oxide (SO3) 5%
Physical Information
pH 4 - 5 (in 10% solution)
EC 1,781 mS / cm (1 g / lt)
Guess I'm confused again. ](*,) Let's compare notes between what you see above and guaranteed analysis of the only fert I have experience with:


Dyna-Gro_7-7-7_specs04.jpg

Learning a little something from Salinas Valley Agriculture -- for Nitrate (NO3)-Nitrate-nitrogen (NO3-N) conversion, multiply by 0.225. I take Dyna-Gro's 4.9% Nitrate (NO3) to mean that the actual Nitrate-N is 1.08%. Since the Ammoniacal (NH4) is 2.1%, I multiply that by 0.7765 and get 1.63% Ammonium-N. Nitrate-N + Ammonium-N = 2.71%, so how can there be 7% nitrogen available to the plant? Only answer that makes sense to me -- Dyna-Gro's products are badly mislabeled, and they should be labeling the percentages by Nitrate-N and Ammonium-N, not Nitrate and Ammoniacal. I didn't know the difference before, but I sure do
now -- General Hydroponics appears to get the labeling right...


FloraMicro-FloraBloom.jpg

...or at least partially right. If I was the manufacturer, I'd change the label to state 0.3% Ammonium-N and 4.7% Nitrate-N. (Maybe I'm being being nit-picky, but I tend to be that way sometimes.) I take GH's FloraMicro label to mean that 0.3% Ammoniacal Nitrogen is the true amount of N available to the plant, and 4.7% Nitrate Nitrogen is also the true amount of N available to the plant -- total amount of N available = 5%. If GH has it right and Dyna-Gro has it wrong, I'd sure like to know. What are your thoughts on this, Jerry?
Dyna-Gro is being sloppy in the terms being used. I know I even catch myself being sloppy at times too. I guess you could read the label like so:

Start with Total Nitrogen and see that it says 7%. Then indented under it you see Ammoniacal of 2.1%. Then directly under it, still indented you see Nitrate of 4.9%. By the indentation you are supposed to know that the two terms are related to Total Nitrogen. And by the fact that 2.1+4.9=7.0, you should realized that those terms have been abbreviated from Ammoniacal Nitrogen to Ammoniacal and Nitrate Nitrogen to Nitrate-the Nitrogen is assumed in both terms. (A grammatical term-see below)

I have to admit it is a bit sloppy. But, you also have to remember that there probably are very few people that reverse engineer fertilizers to customize them like we are doing. Not many people even realize what the label means.

As far as the use of the term "Ammoniacal", that is using English grammar. I know there is a grammatical term to describe what is being done, but I really never enjoyed English when in High School. I can still remember diagraming sentences and having to name all of the terms like adverbs, verbs, prepositions, adjectives, subject, predicate...
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Re: Fertilizers explained (2-part presentation)

Post by Steve Johnson »

jerrytheplater wrote: Fri Mar 10, 2023 7:23 pmI also recently read that some Tephrocactus come from areas with winter temperatures at or below freezing. If so, maybe they need that cold in order to bloom.
If that's the case, then no Tephro flowers for me. Overnight lows in my part of LA never go below about 36F, and temps in the 30s happen maybe 4 or 5 days at the most each winter.
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Re: Fertilizers explained (2-part presentation)

Post by Steve Johnson »

jerrytheplater wrote: Sat Mar 11, 2023 4:01 am...But, you also have to remember that there probably are very few people that reverse engineer fertilizers to customize them like we are doing.
Yeah, I know -- we cactus folks are in the minority as far as the overall gardening community is concerned. I do have to wonder about how many people in our minority even know what they could do if they got into the "nitty gritty" with a better understanding of fertilizers.

Since I may finally have all my facts straight and with the proper N terminology right, here's a new spreadsheet I created based on your revised numbers:

GH_FM-FB_and_supplements_math check.jpg
GH_FM-FB_and_supplements_math check.jpg (105.25 KiB) Viewed 3000 times
A lot more presentable when Excel spreadsheets are printed out as PDFs and converted to JPEGs. Let me know if everything looks good here. Just one thing I wanted to mention -- I'm fine with measuring the ammonium sulfate, potassium sulfate, and sodium molybdate powders in grams, but with liquid measures, it's easier for me to deal in fluid ounces, teaspoons, and gallons when I make my watering solution. Comparing my ppm numbers with your numbers in mL/L, the difference is only 1 or 2 ppm where there's any difference at all -- quite acceptable. The acceptable P and K ranges noted in the spreadsheet come straight from Mike.
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Re: Fertilizers explained (2-part presentation)

Post by jerrytheplater »

I just went over your conversions and agree with them.

With spreadsheets, all I've been doing is printing, scanning and uploading. Never even looked into printing as a pdf. Don't know if I have the appropriate software. I'm still using Excel 7 on my computer. I am very leery of using cloud storage, computing, etc. I don't want to pay a yearly fee to be able to use Windows software. I want it on my computer. I think I'm a dinosaur.
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Re: Fertilizers explained (2-part presentation)

Post by Steve Johnson »

jerrytheplater wrote: Sat Mar 11, 2023 2:53 pmI just went over your conversions and agree with them.
Excellent! I need to update the Terra Aquatica and stock solution spreadsheet for Ohugal, so either later today or tomorrow I'll post it here for him and our other non-US friends living on the metric system. Correcting me on the true amount of N in ammonium sulfate was quite significant, so many thanks for that.

In the interest of being thorough, here's a new spreadsheet including instructions for US growers:

GH_FM-FB_and_supplements_corrected.jpg
GH_FM-FB_and_supplements_corrected.jpg (121.61 KiB) Viewed 2968 times
Note to everyone: Watering solutions diluted with liquid ferts don't age well, so it's best to make them right before you water your cacti (and succulents as the case may be). If you have any watering solution left over at the end of your session, use it to water your nonxeric plants if they need watering -- they'll appreciate the nutrients.
jerrytheplater wrote: Sat Mar 11, 2023 2:53 pmWith spreadsheets, all I've been doing is printing, scanning and uploading. Never even looked into printing as a pdf. Don't know if I have the appropriate software. I'm still using Excel 7 on my computer. I am very leery of using cloud storage, computing, etc. I don't want to pay a yearly fee to be able to use Windows software. I want it on my computer. I think I'm a dinosaur.
There are plenty of free PDF printers you can download onto your computer, and this gives you a good selection to choose from:

https://techpresident.com/best-free-pdf-printer/

I want everything on my computer, so I guess I'm a dinosaur too -- probably more so because I insist on a desktop PC with a nice big screen, and there are a lot of things I simply couldn't do on a laptop. As far as cloud storage is concerned, I'm with you on that -- too insecure, a lot of bad actors can get to your personal data that way. However, there is a big difference between cloud storage and remote data backup on a secure server. For that I highly recommend Carbonite, and I've been using it for years:

https://www.carbonite.com/

If my computer melts down or (God forbid) it gets destroyed in a fire or earthquake, I'll buy a new computer and restore everything through my Carbonite account. IMO worth every penny for peace of mind, so this just something for you to consider.
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Re: Fertilizers explained (2-part presentation)

Post by jerrytheplater »

Steve Johnson wrote: Sat Mar 11, 2023 8:49 pm
jerrytheplater wrote: Sat Mar 11, 2023 2:53 pmI just went over your conversions and agree with them.
Excellent! I need to update the Terra Aquatica and stock solution spreadsheet for Ohugal, so either later today or tomorrow I'll post it here for him and our other non-US friends living on the metric system. Correcting me on the true amount of N in ammonium sulfate was quite significant, so many thanks for that.
You are welcome, but the correction was on the difference between Ammonia/Ammonium and Ammoniacal-Nitrogen and which one to use! What if you are using Ammonium Nitrate?!! That is your next test-it is very commonly used in fertilizers.

I don't see any difference between the last two spreadsheets you posted. Am I missing something?

As far as the computer advice, thanks. I'll have to look into the Carbonite.
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Re: Fertilizers explained (2-part presentation)

Post by Steve Johnson »

jerrytheplater wrote: Sat Mar 11, 2023 10:17 pmWhat if you are using Ammonium Nitrate?!! That is your next test-it is very commonly used in fertilizers.
I'll take that as the editorial "you" -- I personally won't be using ammonium nitrate, but other growers might. You don't know what I have in mind (and since you're not pyschic! :lol: ), I'll clue you in...

While we're doing our thing here, I'm working behind the scenes to build a library of fertilizer recipes with all the details in Excel spreadsheets. It's impossible to account for all the ferts that are out there, but I'd like to cover the more commonly-available ferts hobbyist growers can get in their respective countries. Once I have the library in place, I'll post the spreadsheets as a separate sticky on the Cultivation forum -- freely available to anyone who wants them. I'll need to lock those posts so that replies from other members aren't there to distract us from the sticky's original mission.

Jerry, here's your part of the mission (if you decide to accept it). You can be my "wing man" -- whenever I post new fert recipe spreadsheets in this thread, check my math. If it checks out, let me know. If it doesn't, give me the corrected numbers before I send the spreadsheets over to the library thread.

Something iann said 11 years ago really stuck in my mind:
iann wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2012 7:11 pm ppm measures what you actually put on the plants. If you put 2-7-7 on without diluting it you would kill them, so it is pretty pointless to say you use 2-7-7 without saying how much you dilute it. Also pretty pointless to say you use 7-7-7 instead of 20-20-20 since they will both be the same by the time you put them on the plants.

Rather than give two or three different bits of information and expect people to work it out for themselves, just give the ppm and everyone knows exactly what it means. Except they don't because people have been conditioned since birth to think that numbers are hard :(
His last statement is sad, but true. Although we can't get away from a certain amount of complication, it's important to make the spreadsheets as simple as possible. With that said, I'm including the calculation procedures in the spreadsheets, and maybe those numbers won't seem so hard after all. (That's why we need good teachers! Sorry, iann, but you weren't one of them.)
jerrytheplater wrote: Sat Mar 11, 2023 10:17 pmI don't see any difference between the last two spreadsheets you posted. Am I missing something?
Yep, I'm afraid you did -- excerpts from the 1st spreadsheet (left) and the 2nd (right):

GH_FM-FB_before-and-after.jpg
GH_FM-FB_before-and-after.jpg (38.54 KiB) Viewed 2943 times
Kinda hard to be helpful if I'm not thorough enough. Details matter.
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Re: Fertilizers explained (2-part presentation)

Post by Steve Johnson »

I just updated the TA spreadsheet for ohugal and our other European friends, so there you go:

TA_FM-FB_and_supplements.jpg
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Re: Fertilizers explained (2-part presentation)

Post by jerrytheplater »

Steve just seeing these now since Sat. Can't do anything now. But a comment:

You write Ammonium Sulfate's formula as H8N2O4S. I had to really look at that to see what you were saying way back when. I chalked it up to a "Steveism". That is not the typical way of writing the formula that I learned. I know it as (NH4)2SO4. Right away you read it as Ammonium Sulfate. Very unlike what you write.

I am willing to look at what you post for corrections, as long as you don't expect immediate turn around. Sundays are my day off from hobbies. They will always be out for going on the forum. I work Mon AM right now. We are leaving to visit our daughter 3/21-29. Most likely won't be online then. Etc. Etc.
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Re: Fertilizers explained (2-part presentation)

Post by Steve Johnson »

jerrytheplater wrote: Mon Mar 13, 2023 10:13 pmI chalked it up to a "Steveism". That is not the typical way of writing the formula that I learned. I know it as (NH4)2SO4.
Not a Steveism -- PubChem has it as H8N2O4S or (NH4)2SO4. I'll go with the latter and revise my spreadsheets accordingly.
jerrytheplater wrote: Mon Mar 13, 2023 10:13 pmI am willing to look at what you post for corrections, as long as you don't expect immediate turn around. Sundays are my day off from hobbies. They will always be out for going on the forum. I work Mon AM right now. We are leaving to visit our daughter 3/21-29. Most likely won't be online then. Etc. Etc.
That's fine. I don't think we'll have new fert recipes coming up often anyway.
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Re: Fertilizers explained (2-part presentation)

Post by jerrytheplater »

Those numbers you posted for Ohugal are exactly what I posted as a correction with my Excel spreadsheet except you increased the stock solution being used to 54 ml from the 53 ml on my spreadsheet. Not a huge difference, and I myself allow an error when measuring say 53 ml of a few ml plus or minus. It really is not significant. We are not making NIST standards.
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Re: Fertilizers explained (2-part presentation)

Post by jerrytheplater »

Steve Johnson wrote: Sun Mar 12, 2023 12:26 am
His last statement is sad, but true. Although we can't get away from a certain amount of complication, it's important to make the spreadsheets as simple as possible. With that said, I'm including the calculation procedures in the spreadsheets, and maybe those numbers won't seem so hard after all. (That's why we need good teachers! Sorry, iann, but you weren't one of them.)
One thing I've been wondering about your spreadsheets you've been posting is, are the calculations being done in other cells not showing on your sheet? It took me a bit to figure out what you had written till I realized what some of the numbers meant. I'd like to see a copy of your spreadsheet to see how it works. It isn't possible to post them on the forum. I've sent you mine in the past. I know I could move all of my calculations into another page and just have a summary sheet showing results only, without any of the work behind it. That is what yours seem to be. Am I right?
jerrytheplater wrote: Sat Mar 11, 2023 10:17 pmI don't see any difference between the last two spreadsheets you posted. Am I missing something?
Yep, I'm afraid you did -- excerpts from the 1st spreadsheet (left) and the 2nd (right):


GH_FM-FB_before-and-after.jpg
Kinda hard to be helpful if I'm not thorough enough. Details matter.
So the difference is that you put the directions for making the solutions at the bottom of the spreadsheet from the numbers you had above. Good thing, I've been doing that for a long time. Not everyone can read a spreadsheet.

And yes, it is very important to say how strong/how concentrated your fertilizer solution is in terms of Nitrogen. (I've been calculating that for years really. Ever since I started wondering when given instructions to use Tomato fertilizer at 1/2 strength or 1/4 strength. Never liked that.) All of the other components follow along with the N in the same proportion. Commercial fertilizers give dosing rates in terms of ppm N and injector ratios. 50 ppm, 100 ppm, 150 ppm, 200 ppm.....

By the way, I saw my friend has some Plant Products No Stretch fertilizer: 15-0-20. https://www.plantproducts.com/ca/viewpr ... p?pid=1303
Jerry Smith
Bloomingdale, NJ
45 inches (114 cm) rain equivalent per year, approx. evenly spread per month
2012 USDA Hardiness Zone 6b: -5F to OF (-20C to -18C) min.
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