SDK1's Seedlings 2023

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keith
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Re: SDK1's Seedlings 2023

Post by keith »

Set-up looks good . Once they are up air flow will help if its too humid , try and keep fungus away from tiny stems.

A picture of mesembs a couple years old from seeds these are conophytums from my own plants I think uniforum but not totally sure I mixed more seeds in the pot after the first ones didn't sprout. With mesembs I'm using lots more sand because seeds are so small. lithops are pretty easy to sprout from seed also.
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Tom in Tucson
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Re: SDK1's Seedlings 2023

Post by Tom in Tucson »

What I mean by varying the setup is: Cacti usually germinate better with higher temperatures, than other succulents. Conophytum and most members of the crassulaceae do better with a temperature range of 50-70F. My Lithops will sprout well enough at 70-80F. The problem I find is supplying enough light without generating too much heat.
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jerrytheplater
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Re: SDK1's Seedlings 2023

Post by jerrytheplater »

Tom in Tucson wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 7:28 pm What I mean by varying the setup is: Cacti usually germinate better with higher temperatures, than other succulents. Conophytum and most members of the crassulaceae do better with a temperature range of 50-70F. My Lithops will sprout well enough at 70-80F. The problem I find is supplying enough light without generating too much heat.
Tom, are you using LED lights? I have a 150 watt LED fixture I bought from Viparspectra, the XS1500 https://www.viparspectra.com/products/xs-series-xs1500 which I am using to light my winter dormant warmth requiring plants. My Madagascar Euphorbia are growing under it too. It does not raise the temperature in the room it is in to any amount I can see. The light is about 18" over the top of my seedling trays of Euphorbia tulearensis. No stretching at all.
Jerry Smith
Bloomingdale, NJ
45 inches (114 cm) rain equivalent per year, approx. evenly spread per month
2012 USDA Hardiness Zone 6b: -5F to OF (-20C to -18C) min.
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mmcavall
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Re: SDK1's Seedlings 2023

Post by mmcavall »

Hi SDK1,
Good information here in this thread.
I liked the sowing mix and the idea of do not sterilize and see what happens.
Here is my experience on that: for long time I skiped the sterelization and it was ok...when fungus arrive I just open the bags and let the seedlings grow in open air, and the fungus dye. However in the last two years I have had lots of fungus in the pots and I lost several seedlings, so I started to try sterelization.
So I prepare the pots and microwave them for 5 minutes. All water that I spray after that is previously boiled. And fungi continues to appear, so I'm assuming they are in the seed coats already, just waiting for good conditions to grow. Sterilize the seeds is another issue and I am not being sucessfull. I'm spraying difeconazole over the seeds (just after sowing them, and in the subsequent weeks)...it is controling the fungus but... I'm still not happy.
I made a controled experiment, maybe I'll put it in details in my own thread about germination...I tested different concentrations of hydrogen peroxyde , pure water, and dirty water (water plus organic debrits and soil) and ...surprise... even pure hydrogen peroxyde was not able to avoid the fungus, so I dont believe anymore in using hydrogen peroxyde...think about that...100 % H2O2 and fungus are still appearing ... how would a dilution be effective?
Curiosly the best result (less fungus) was in the dirty water, and the only explanation I can give to this result is that other microorganisms in the dirty water competed with the pathogens and , well, they win... (I should do the experiment again).
This brings me up to the point of DrPlantyDaddy here in the thread, about using micorrhizae. When I read it yesterday night I imediately searched for and bought it, I'm waiting for it to arrive and I am very curious to try. I want to start a thread on this topic to discuss the best methods of application etc.
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mmcavall
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Re: SDK1's Seedlings 2023

Post by mmcavall »

Note about the previous post: I said pure hydrogen peroxyde but it is not 100%, it is something like 3% I think. But for sterelization a dilution of that is recommended. I tried it pure (direct from the bottle ) and it was not effective.
keith
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Re: SDK1's Seedlings 2023

Post by keith »

Another thing I try is fill the seedling pots with soil , then water and let them alone for 1 month then plant seeds. If a pot over runs with fungus during this 1 month throw out the soil. So far almost all fungus seems to come from seeds so I now spray seeds with Hydrogen peroxide 3% and let them bubble for a few minutes then rinse and then dry out then sow. Expose the pots to full sunlight for a few days with plastic covering after sowing seeds. Then place them in a filtered sunlight location.

I also take the plastic off right after germination and put window screen on in its place.
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jerrytheplater
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Re: SDK1's Seedlings 2023

Post by jerrytheplater »

mmcavall wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 7:55 pm This brings me up to the point of DrPlantyDaddy here in the thread, about using micorrhizae. When I read it yesterday night I imediately searched for and bought it, I'm waiting for it to arrive and I am very curious to try. I want to start a thread on this topic to discuss the best methods of application etc.
I mentioned above about my commercial grower friend using bacteria and mycorrhizae in his greenhouse. At that mention I had forgotten what product he is using. This is it: Microbe Remedy. It is on page 3-4 of this pdf catalog from Microbial Science Laboratories in Columbia, PA. https://microbialsciencelaboratories.co ... atalog.pdf

I just used the Espoma Organic Cactus Fertilizer today on a bog plant I have growing in a terrarium. The plant is a swamp plant from SE Asia called Cryptocorne wendtii. It is growing in a 1" deep very clay rich mixture of gravel, sand, peat moss, and clay. Fully saturated with standing water, no drainage. I just added about 25 ml of fertilizer water at their rate of 2 tsp/qt. I'm curious to see what happens.

I have not used any of the Microbe Remedy yet. Probably will.
Jerry Smith
Bloomingdale, NJ
45 inches (114 cm) rain equivalent per year, approx. evenly spread per month
2012 USDA Hardiness Zone 6b: -5F to OF (-20C to -18C) min.
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MrXeric
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Re: SDK1's Seedlings 2023

Post by MrXeric »

Nice set of new seeds! I like the graphics card fan idea. Can't wait to see your seedlings, especially the herrerae (I tried them once and failed!) :)

I have tried inoculating seedling substrate with mycorrhizae before. I used MycoGro (https://fungi.com/collections/mycogrow/ ... ow_soluble), alone or together with "tea" I made from this organic fertilizer that also has beneficial microbe inoculants (https://drearth.com/product/root-zone-fertilizer/). The seedlings grew well, but I still had fungus and dead seedlings popping up in a few pots every sowing, despite sterilizing the media before using either product. It's hard to quantify how well the seedlings grew when using those products, but for this year's sowing I did not use any inoculant, just the synthetic liquid fertlizer I use for my other plants, and it seems like these seedlings are growing slower? Again hard to quantify without a proper experimental setup, especially since most species this year are new to me, but as an example, the Ariocarpus I sowed this year are just growing their first tubercles at two months old, while in previous years the Ariocarpus (different species!) were growing their first tubercles at one month after germination.

Edit: I forgot to mention that it may be faster to link your images from an image hosting website, like imgur.com. It's less secure in that if the hosting website disappears, so will your pics! But at least you don't need to edit anything making sharing pics more streamlined.
Last edited by MrXeric on Thu Mar 16, 2023 1:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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mmcavall
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Re: SDK1's Seedlings 2023

Post by mmcavall »

This made me think in planning a controled experiment... I have some seeds in quantity for that.
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MikeInOz
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Re: SDK1's Seedlings 2023

Post by MikeInOz »

mmcavall wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 7:55 pm Hi SDK1,
Good information here in this thread.
I liked the sowing mix and the idea of do not sterilize and see what happens.
Here is my experience on that: for long time I skiped the sterelization and it was ok...when fungus arrive I just open the bags and let the seedlings grow in open air, and the fungus dye. However in the last two years I have had lots of fungus in the pots and I lost several seedlings, so I started to try sterelization.
So I prepare the pots and microwave them for 5 minutes. All water that I spray after that is previously boiled. And fungi continues to appear, so I'm assuming they are in the seed coats already, just waiting for good conditions to grow. Sterilize the seeds is another issue and I am not being sucessfull. I'm spraying difeconazole over the seeds (just after sowing them, and in the subsequent weeks)...it is controling the fungus but... I'm still not happy.
I made a controled experiment, maybe I'll put it in details in my own thread about germination...I tested different concentrations of hydrogen peroxyde , pure water, and dirty water (water plus organic debrits and soil) and ...surprise... even pure hydrogen peroxyde was not able to avoid the fungus, so I dont believe anymore in using hydrogen peroxyde...think about that...100 % H2O2 and fungus are still appearing ... how would a dilution be effective?
Curiosly the best result (less fungus) was in the dirty water, and the only explanation I can give to this result is that other microorganisms in the dirty water competed with the pathogens and , well, they win... (I should do the experiment again).
This brings me up to the point of DrPlantyDaddy here in the thread, about using micorrhizae. When I read it yesterday night I imediately searched for and bought it, I'm waiting for it to arrive and I am very curious to try. I want to start a thread on this topic to discuss the best methods of application etc.
If you are getting rot in your seedlings you are using the incorrect media. Chemicals, lotions and potions of any kind are not necessary. You need to add < or > 20% matured compost in your mix. It must be still actively decomposing. Mature compost means the compost is left to mature in a moist condition for about 6 months after the composting process is over. This results in a material which is highly suppressive to to pathogens like Pythium and Phytophthora. There is no need to sterilize the seeds or disinfect anything with chemicals. I have sown thousands of seeds in this way over the last several years and have not lost any to rot. It works far better than trying to sterilize mixes or seeds. There is more information here...
viewtopic.php?p=389957&hilit=mature+compost#p389957
SDK1
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Re: SDK1's Seedlings 2023

Post by SDK1 »

Tom in Tucson wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 7:28 pm What I mean by varying the setup is: Cacti usually germinate better with higher temperatures, than other succulents. Conophytum and most members of the crassulaceae do better with a temperature range of 50-70F. My Lithops will sprout well enough at 70-80F. The problem I find is supplying enough light without generating too much heat.
Ahh, I got you. Yeah, I thought about that because I've got about 300 haworthia seeds I need to start and I'm trying to figure out how to do that since temperatures here are still below freezing at night. I could wait another few weeks but I'm impatient and I don't trust the weather to cooperate.
mmcavall wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 8:19 pm Note about the previous post: I said pure hydrogen peroxyde but it is not 100%, it is something like 3% I think. But for sterelization a dilution of that is recommended. I tried it pure (direct from the bottle ) and it was not effective.
I've found that putting them in the little incubator I made and cracking the lid at night has really reduced the prevalence of fungus although I haven't sown any more Astrophytums since I changed things up; they sprouted super quickly but also were the pots that got hit the hardest and quickest by some sort of fungus. Switching my top dressing to smaller grained material also seemed to help. I was using crushed granite but the seedlings seem to have an easier time emerging through the Turface. I can't really prove that in any measurable way though.

I'm hesitant to use hydrogen peroxide at anything more than 1% strength due to the destructive properties it has. It's no longer recommended by any (I think) emergency care organizations due to the fact that it causes more damage to healthy cells surrounding a wound and increases the amount of time to heal. Might kill a fungus (or maybe not in your case) but I have a mild worry that it would cause as much damage to a seedling or any positive/neutral microbes that may be hanging out in the soil.

Honestly one of the things I'm looking forward to the most is trying MikeInOz's method of incorporating some aged wood chip compost into my seed mix in the coming years. I have a bit of environmental background and love composting so using a carbon heavy (more fungally dominated) compost is such a subtle but brilliant idea that I feel like a bit of dunce for not even thinking about that. I built a Johnson-Su bioreactor (fancy words for what's basically making good leaf mould and wood chip compost using cattle panels) at our old house and used the stuff in the garden all the time. Still have to get the garden at the new place going, only been here a year, and that means getting more compost bays built too. I promisrd my wife I wouldn't start any new big garden projects our first year in the new house so we could take care of everything else but that year is up!
keith wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 8:34 pm Another thing I try is fill the seedling pots with soil , then water and let them alone for 1 month then plant seeds. If a pot over runs with fungus during this 1 month throw out the soil. So far almost all fungus seems to come from seeds so I now spray seeds with Hydrogen peroxide 3% and let them bubble for a few minutes then rinse and then dry out then sow. Expose the pots to full sunlight for a few days with plastic covering after sowing seeds. Then place them in a filtered sunlight location.

I also take the plastic off right after germination and put window screen on in its place.
I actually noticed that with the first couple of pots I had fungal problems in. The fungus seemed to concentrate on a couple of seeds and then shot out threads/webbing (mycelia?) from the compromised seeds. There was minor fungal growth in other pots but it didn't take hold like it did in pots where a failed seed got colonized. I wonder if the 3% wash helps with germination at all. I know there's a variety of things that seem to help trigger germination or wear down the chemical signals that prevent a seed from sprouting until the right conditions are provided. The sunlight tip is good too, I know that's a helpful way to reduce the prevalence of fungi. Not much can handle good old UV exposure. Going to have to find more seeds to try that with once the weather breaks.
jerrytheplater wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 8:59 pm
mmcavall wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 7:55 pm This brings me up to the point of DrPlantyDaddy here in the thread, about using micorrhizae. When I read it yesterday night I imediately searched for and bought it, I'm waiting for it to arrive and I am very curious to try. I want to start a thread on this topic to discuss the best methods of application etc.
I mentioned above about my commercial grower friend using bacteria and mycorrhizae in his greenhouse. At that mention I had forgotten what product he is using. This is it: Microbe Remedy. It is on page 3-4 of this pdf catalog from Microbial Science Laboratories in Columbia, PA. https://microbialsciencelaboratories.co ... atalog.pdf

I just used the Espoma Organic Cactus Fertilizer today on a bog plant I have growing in a terrarium. The plant is a swamp plant from SE Asia called Cryptocorne wendtii. It is growing in a 1" deep very clay rich mixture of gravel, sand, peat moss, and clay. Fully saturated with standing water, no drainage. I just added about 25 ml of fertilizer water at their rate of 2 tsp/qt. I'm curious to see what happens.

I have not used any of the Microbe Remedy yet. Probably will.
I'd be interested in knowing how that turns out Jerry. I work in wetlands and most bog plants have to be able to adapt to the relatively low nutrient availability. That's a pretty decent amount of fert but i guess I'm thinking along the lines of synthetic fertilizers. Hope you see some bang for your buck on that one. I generally stay away from "organic" fertilizers because I don't think it's worthwhile to rely on microbial activity within a container. In the ground, sure, organic all the way. I read, and have found it to be the case, that using organic ferts in a small system like a pot tends towards boom and bust cycles which leads to an uneven availability of nutrients to the plant. Sometimes not enough and sometimes so much that it borders on toxicity of certain compounds. For me, it's just easier to use synthetic ferts and know what my plants are getting.

I also look at the variety of microbial inoculant products on the market with a pretty heavily skeptical eye. The explosion of the marijuana industry has led to even more snake oil products being offered than ever before. I'm sure there are plenty of products that actually do provide benefits but I don't have the desire or the time or the money to try out individual products to see if they work or if they're worth it, especially when my current nutrient regime works just fine for me. The only thing I think would be worthwhile is making my own compost like I mentioned above. Don't have to think about the shelf stability or if the bacteria/fungi listed on the bottle are what's actually in the product.
MrXeric wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 12:39 am Nice set of new seeds! I like the graphics card fan idea. Can't wait to see your seedlings, especially the herrerae (I tried them once and failed!) :)

I have tried inoculating seedling substrate with mycorrhizae before. I used MycoGro (https://fungi.com/collections/mycogrow/ ... ow_soluble), alone or together with "tea" I made from this organic fertilizer that also has beneficial microbe inoculants (https://drearth.com/product/root-zone-fertilizer/). The seedlings grew well, but I still had fungus and dead seedlings popping up in a few pots every sowing, despite sterilizing the media before using either product. It's hard to quantify how well the seedlings grew when using those products, but for this year's sowing I did not use any inoculant, just the synthetic liquid fertlizer I use for my other plants, and it seems like these seedlings are growing slower? Again hard to quantify without a proper experimental setup, especially since most species this year are new to me, but as an example, the Ariocarpus I sowed this year are just growing their first tubercles at two months old, while in previous years the Ariocarpus (different species!) were growing their first tubercles at one month after germination.

Edit: I forgot to mention that it may be faster to link your images from an image hosting website, like imgur.com. It's less secure in that if the hosting website disappears, so will your pics! But at least you don't need to edit anything making sharing pics more streamlined.
Thanks, I'm pretty stoked for the herrerae seeds too. Hoping for good germination but I've heard they're kind of known for the opposite. I'm going to be ordering some stump killer soon because it's the only way I've found to get potassium nitrate at a retail level that doesn't involve ordering from labs or sketchy amazon vendors. I want to see if the germination enhancing properties of that would work on M. herrerae. Maybe not but it would be pretty sweet if it did. I also want to try seed soaking with monkfruit sugar and/or glucose but who knows when I'll get around to that. I still have plans to tweak the incubator by using a couple 40mm x 40mm fans to circulate air a bit more effectively and actually get a glass top for the aquariums. Always more stuff to mess with.

Yeah I've thought about trying to make albums on imgur to link to but I do like being able to see the pictures in the thread itself. I just need to suck it up and resize my pictures as I take them haha.
MikeInOz wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 2:47 am
If you are getting rot in your seedlings you are using the incorrect media. Chemicals, lotions and potions of any kind are not necessary. You need to add < or > 20% matured compost in your mix. It must be still actively decomposing. Mature compost means the compost is left to mature in a moist condition for about 6 months after the composting process is over. This results in a material which is highly suppressive to to pathogens like Pythium and Phytophthora. There is no need to sterilize the seeds or disinfect anything with chemicals. I have sown thousands of seeds in this way over the last several years and have not lost any to rot. It works far better than trying to sterilize mixes or seeds. There is more information here...
viewtopic.php?p=389957&hilit=mature+compost#p389957
Speak of the devil, I mentioned you and your method of incorporating a small amount of mature compost into the seedling mix in a prior response to mmcavall. Thanks for posting the link and bringing it up here. I'm definitely going to be pursuing this is future seed sowing attempts. Do you have anything to add regarding some of the harder to germinate mammillarias or other species that seem to have low germ rates? I've read that potassium nitrate seems to increase germination somewhat significantly and that using small amounts of giberellic acid can do the same. I haven't found anything to do with either of these methods in relation to cacti specifically but I'm wondering if they could work to override the chemical signaling within the seeds that appears to delay or inhibit sprouting. I wonder if even something as simple as seed soaking could increase germination rates for the likes of M. herrerae or other more cryptic species like M. saboae, M. bertholdii, and ones like them. Would love your input on any of that or experience with species like those.
5b/6a - Indiana. Half the year growing outdoors, half the year indoors.

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Tom in Tucson
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Re: SDK1's Seedlings 2023

Post by Tom in Tucson »

jerrytheplater wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 7:49 pm
Tom in Tucson wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 7:28 pm What I mean by varying the setup is: Cacti usually germinate better with higher temperatures, than other succulents. Conophytum and most members of the crassulaceae do better with a temperature range of 50-70F. My Lithops will sprout well enough at 70-80F. The problem I find is supplying enough light without generating too much heat.
Tom, are you using LED lights? I have a 150 watt LED fixture I bought from Viparspectra, the XS1500 https://www.viparspectra.com/products/xs-series-xs1500 which I am using to light my winter dormant warmth requiring plants. My Madagascar Euphorbia are growing under it too. It does not raise the temperature in the room it is in to any amount I can see. The light is about 18" over the top of my seedling trays of Euphorbia tulearensis. No stretching at all.
Jerry, I'm using fluorescent lights with my seed and seedling pots inside plastic bags to retain moisture. I looked at the LED setups your link took me to, and although that would be nice in a room devoted to growing, it's far more than I need.

Good luck with your Euphorbia tulearensis they are 1 of my favorites from Madagascar.
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Re: SDK1's Seedlings 2023

Post by jerrytheplater »

SDK1 wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 6:53 pm
I'd be interested in knowing how that turns out Jerry. I work in wetlands and most bog plants have to be able to adapt to the relatively low nutrient availability. That's a pretty decent amount of fert but i guess I'm thinking along the lines of synthetic fertilizers. Hope you see some bang for your buck on that one.

That Cryptocoryne I'm growing has been in that jar maybe for more than 8 years now. I periodically take it out to remove the runners and new plants. I fertilize usually every 2 months with a little bit of the cactus fertilizer I'm using that day. I only used the fertilizer to get to the bacteria. This photo shows Springtails in the jar. I don't have them now though.
2018-2-13 C. wendtii 2.jpg
2018-2-13 C. wendtii 2.jpg (133.22 KiB) Viewed 2255 times
I'm going to be ordering some stump killer soon because it's the only way I've found to get potassium nitrate at a retail level that doesn't involve ordering from labs or sketchy amazon vendors.

You can buy Potassium NItrate from Aquatic Plant suppliers like these. We use KNO3 in our aquariums all the time. Current price is $5.00/lb plus postage. AquariumFertilizer.com https://aquariumfertilizer.com/
I am in the middle of planting some dormant unlabelled Sarracenia rhizomes I bought early February. Its getting warm. I have to uncover my tender plants from their leaf pile storage. Its worked for the past 4 years. You said you work in wetlands, so I thought I'd bring them up.
Jerry Smith
Bloomingdale, NJ
45 inches (114 cm) rain equivalent per year, approx. evenly spread per month
2012 USDA Hardiness Zone 6b: -5F to OF (-20C to -18C) min.
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MikeInOz
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Re: SDK1's Seedlings 2023

Post by MikeInOz »

SDK1 wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 6:53 pm







Speak of the devil, I mentioned you and your method of incorporating a small amount of mature compost into the seedling mix in a prior response to mmcavall. Thanks for posting the link and bringing it up here. I'm definitely going to be pursuing this is future seed sowing attempts. Do you have anything to add regarding some of the harder to germinate mammillarias or other species that seem to have low germ rates? I've read that potassium nitrate seems to increase germination somewhat significantly and that using small amounts of giberellic acid can do the same. I haven't found anything to do with either of these methods in relation to cacti specifically but I'm wondering if they could work to override the chemical signaling within the seeds that appears to delay or inhibit sprouting. I wonder if even something as simple as seed soaking could increase germination rates for the likes of M. herrerae or other more cryptic species like M. saboae, M. bertholdii, and ones like them. Would love your input on any of that or experience with species like those.
I tried KNO3 on Echinocactus horizonthalonius. I did not notice any improved germination. I don't know if I did the right thing. I just soaked them for a couple of hours but if they have an impermeable seed coat that won't do much - and it didn't. Perhaps there is better technique like scarifying first before soaking? - Or, watering them in with the KNO# solution??? I would be very interested in any success you might have. I have tried to germinate M goldii several times without success. 1, 2, 3 and 4 year old seed made no difference. M. bertholdii - I put in 10 seeds and got 2 to germinate. They are growing quite well. The next year I re-sowed what was left and got one more up but it disappeared without a trace after a couple of weeks. I put in 50 seeds from my own M. theresae this year and only one germinated. Next spring I will re-sow and see what happens. I might scarify half and soak them in the potassium nitrate and compare. I had pretty good rate with herrerae and 100% with albiflora without any species treatment.
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Re: SDK1's Seedlings 2023

Post by mmcavall »

MikeInOz wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 2:47 am
If you are getting rot in your seedlings you are using the incorrect media. Chemicals, lotions and potions of any kind are not necessary. You need to add < or > 20% matured compost in your mix. It must be still actively decomposing. Mature compost means the compost is left to mature in a moist condition for about 6 months after the composting process is over. This results in a material which is highly suppressive to to pathogens like Pythium and Phytophthora. There is no need to sterilize the seeds or disinfect anything with chemicals. I have sown thousands of seeds in this way over the last several years and have not lost any to rot. It works far better than trying to sterilize mixes or seeds. There is more information here...
viewtopic.php?p=389957&hilit=mature+compost#p389957
Thank you Mike. Very interesting. I'll read your thread and comment there. Thanks
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