Are you growing your cacti in a soilless mix?

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Steve Johnson
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Re: Are you growing your cacti in a soilless mix?

Post by Steve Johnson »

jerrytheplater wrote: Mon Aug 14, 2023 9:59 pm
MikeInOz wrote: Sun Aug 13, 2023 1:06 am
jerrytheplater wrote: Tue Aug 08, 2023 9:43 pm

The bark leachate could feed soil bacteria, if any are in the pot. This is a question I've had-do potted plant mixes develop a bacterial community as they are used over time? I have been fertilizing some of my plants with bacteria containing fertilizer in hopes of having a more bio-active potting mix.
Bacteria grow and increase in numbers in direct proportion to the N available so it's doesn't matter what is in the mix, if there is low N there will be low bacteria numbers. The bark or other organic material is the food for them but without N they can't use it.
So, are you saying we have soil bacteria in our pots? (Obviously, you have no idea what every pot contains-Not asking that) Is there active decomposition going on in plant pots? Is it anything we should keep in mind regarding fertilizer application?
I'll add another question...

When we're growing desert cacti in pots, the substrate should go from wet to bone-dry top-to-bottom before they're watered again. Do bacteria survive in the substrate's dry state? The answer should be instructive for growers using organic and inorganic materials in a soilless mix. By the way, Jerry's questions are excellent IMO.
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Re: Are you growing your cacti in a soilless mix?

Post by jerrytheplater »

Steve Johnson wrote: Tue Aug 15, 2023 4:39 am I'll add another question...

When we're growing desert cacti in pots, the substrate should go from wet to bone-dry top-to-bottom before they're watered again. Do bacteria survive in the substrate's dry state? The answer should be instructive for growers using organic and inorganic materials in a soilless mix. By the way, Jerry's questions are excellent IMO.
And I'll add in too. I've been wondering about desert soil and bacteria. Way back when I took a years worth of Microbiology (1972). I know bacteria can handle dry conditions easily via dormancy. Spore formation too. So, I'm wondering if there are specific bacteria in desert soils?

And really assuming that there are bacteria in desert soils, would they be worthwhile to add to our plants? I've never seen them offered for sale. I have seen bacteria/fungi mixes for general plants. I've used them on bog soils that are 100% saturated all the time. But not sure what if any are surviving those conditions.

Either MrXeric or Keith is adding desert soil to his plant mix. I remember one of them saying so. That would really inoculate his pots with the soil organisms I'm talking about.
Jerry Smith
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zpeckler
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Re: Are you growing your cacti in a soilless mix?

Post by zpeckler »

Steve Johnson wrote: Sun Aug 13, 2023 8:43 am By the way, does anyone think this thread rates as a sticky? If so, I'll sticky it.
I would agree... Rates a sticky. 👍🏻
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Re: Are you growing your cacti in a soilless mix?

Post by zpeckler »

Currently working on experiments with the rate of substrate drying in my climate. Living in NorCal has its perks: the garden center 5 min from my house had big ol' bags of shredded redwood bark for $6.

A couple of questions:

Is there an ideal "particle size" for the shredded bark?

Is there a difference in water retention between different species of bark? I don't imagine so, but you never know.


It's another hot one in the Sac Valley... thermometer hit 100F at 11am. It's relatively humid at 35% due to some mountain thunderstorms that passed to the east of us yesterday!
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Steve Johnson
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Re: Are you growing your cacti in a soilless mix?

Post by Steve Johnson »

zpeckler wrote: Tue Aug 15, 2023 7:57 pm
Steve Johnson wrote: Sun Aug 13, 2023 8:43 am By the way, does anyone think this thread rates as a sticky? If so, I'll sticky it.
I would agree... Rates a sticky. 👍🏻
A sticky it is then. Thanks, Zac!
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Re: Are you growing your cacti in a soilless mix?

Post by Steve Johnson »

zpeckler wrote: Tue Aug 15, 2023 8:07 pm Currently working on experiments with the rate of substrate drying in my climate. Living in NorCal has its perks: the garden center 5 min from my house had big ol' bags of shredded redwood bark for $6.

A couple of questions:

Is there an ideal "particle size" for the shredded bark?

Is there a difference in water retention between different species of bark? I don't imagine so, but you never know.
Can't give you an answer on question #2, but I think I have the perfect "answer man" for you -- meet John Trager. John has been the Huntington's desert collection curator for over 20 years, and he's a wizard of a grower. He's also wonderful about responding to emails, so you can email him at jtrager@huntington.org. Here are a few questions to ask:
  • If so, which product is he using?
  • Can you buy the same product he's using by the bag?
I'm pretty sure the answer to the last question is "yes", although you may have to get it from Sequoia Landscape Materials. John uses the 80% pumice/20% bark compost mix for growing the potted cacti and succulents in the desert greenhouse -- if you're able to use the same compost he's using, I think you're set. If you can't and you need to find another source for shredded bark, he should be able to answer your first question. Good news is that your climate is similar to the climate at the Huntington in Pasadena. Thunderheads sitting right over the area, so I think their humidity is pretty much the same as yours now -- maybe even higher.
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Re: Are you growing your cacti in a soilless mix?

Post by zpeckler »

Awesome contact!

I believe you said in a previous post that John uses the Double Grind redwood mulch, but I'll confirm.

Lucky me.... Sequoia Landscape Materials is in Santa Rosa, and I'm gonna be down there next week visiting my sister! She's a self-described "crazy plant lady," so I don't think it'll take much convincing to swing by. 😉
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Re: Are you growing your cacti in a soilless mix?

Post by Steve Johnson »

zpeckler wrote: Tue Aug 15, 2023 11:18 pm Awesome contact!

I believe you said in a previous post that John uses the Double Grind redwood mulch, but I'll confirm.
Just a guess on my part -- in his email to me, he did say he uses composted fir bark and maybe redwood. He calls the product "Forest humus". I don't see it listed as such on the Sequoia Landscape Materials website, so he may be getting it from another source. He can let you know either way.

There's one important thing to consider -- pH of the potting medium. I believe that both redwood and fir have a low pH, and I wonder if John has to buffer his 80% pumice/20% compost accordingly. If so, how does he do it? Does he take one approach with North American species and another approach with South American species? Those are other good questions to ask. Given the fact that I have a terminal case of curiosity, I'll be interested in getting your answers from John.
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Re: Are you growing your cacti in a soilless mix?

Post by zpeckler »

All right, I reached out to John Trager with some questions, and I got a reply today.

The questions:
  • Is there a specific size of pumice you shoot for? I've got access to sizes between 3/16" to 3/8".
  • From other members emails with you, it sounds like "forest humus" is a mix of shredded fir and redwood bark. When you measure out the 80/20 ratio in your growing mix, is that by weight or volume? Maybe this is nit-picking, but shredded bark mulch is quite compressible and so I imagine measuring by volume could get you very different results depending on how densely its packed.
  • Is the "forest humus" a specific commercial product?
  • With mulch chips and shredded bark having a low pH, do you use any buffering agent when watering?
  • And lastly, do you take a different approach between North American and South American species?
And his reply:
Hi Zac,

Your mix is not much different than ours in terms of percentage of organic to inorganic. We use 80% pumice and 20% organic. We shifted away from the Forest Humus product for a mix made by a local soils and potting mix company that offers the convenience of mixing it in bulk for us. The pumice we use is the 3/8” size. Here is a link to the organic component. We use their nutrient mix with peat and perlite: https://www.ofwolfinbargerinc.com/soils/.

The organic component can be whatever is available to you locally. LGM planter mix would be good if you can find that. It is largely oak leaf mould. The Forest Humus was a well-composted pine and fir bark medium. It worked well enough but became quite hydrophobic when dry. The same will happen with just about any organic component (like peat) so we try to keep our mix fairly damp and sometimes moisten it before use as needed.

Acidification of water and fertilizer has been shown to be beneficial. I refer you to the attached article from the Cactus and Succulent Journal 80(5): 245-250 (2008). pH seems to fluctuate significantly in real time so simply striving for slightly acid seems to be sufficient. We use Liquinox liquid fertilizer which is acidic by virtue of added phosphoric acid which seems to bring us within the desired pH range. When just watering, we have experimented with the addition of distilled vinegar to adjust pH. However, during the growing season, we generally pre-water with just water to saturate and then displace that by following with fertilizer solution at about 2/5 strength.

We do this for virtually everything we grow but have considered the addition of gypsum (MgS04) for some gypsum endemics but we do not use it as a regular practice.

I hope this information helps your plants thrive.

All the best, John

I personally found this reply to be really helpful. Particularly in the sense that the approach is straightforward and doesn't vary between genuses. It's also simple in the sense that even with the relatively acidic forest products as the organic component no correction or buffering is needed. I'm fortunate that my town's water supply has a mineral content such that when I mix up a batch of Mike & Steve's Fertilizer Regimen the pH of the solution ends up being between 5.5 and 6 without any adjustment on my part.

One thing that this thread and John's reply revealed is that I think I'm misunderstanding or wrong about my conception of what exactly "soil" and "soilless" mean. It seems pretty straightforward that wood chips or shredded bark are "organic," but clearly not "soil." But then I look at the LGM Planter Mix or the Nutrient Mix With Peat and Perlite and it looks like, well, dirt. Plus looking at the components there are descriptions like "composted." At what point do these organic components cross the line and become "soil?"

Lastly, for my NorCal compatriots, I was over in Santa Rosa this weekend and was able to swing by Sequoia Landscape Materials. I got a few bags of their Double Grind Redwood Bark and just because it looked good I got some of their 1/4 Inch Minus Fir Bark. Gimme a little bit to actually get around to playing around with them and I'll report back.
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Re: Are you growing your cacti in a soilless mix?

Post by Steve Johnson »

Between MikeInOz and John Trager, we're blessed to have 2 horticultural experts on the job here. Zac, I'm really glad that John was able to give you (and by extension everyone on the forum) some valuable information.
zpeckler wrote: Tue Aug 29, 2023 10:20 pmIt seems pretty straightforward that wood chips or shredded bark are "organic," but clearly not "soil." But then I look at the LGM Planter Mix or the Nutrient Mix With Peat and Perlite and it looks like, well, dirt. Plus looking at the components there are descriptions like "composted." At what point do these organic components cross the line and become "soil?"
You'l find a good answer here:

https://thrivingyard.com/does-compost-turn-into-soil/

The only disagreement I would have with John is his approach to fertilizers -- more specifically, using the phosphoric acid in Liquinox fert to bring his pH within the desired range. As I learned from Mike, P is optimal when the P/N ratio is 0.25-0.35 -- just to review, P higher than 0.4 reduces root growth, stem growth, and flower production. What John may not be aware of is that higher P in the Liquinox will lead to those problems over time. I've seen the difference between higher P (0.44 in the Dyna Gro 7-7-7) and lower P (0.29) in my new fert regimen, and the improvements are substantial. About 3 years ago I sent an email to him on the subject of fertilizers detailing some of what I learned from Mike, although I didn't have nearly enough information then. I have a lot more now, so I'll email him with a link to my "Fertilizers explained" presentation. If he's up for a change to his fert regimen, I'm sure he'd be pleasantly surprised to see the growing improvements in his cacti and succulents.
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Re: Are you growing your cacti in a soilless mix?

Post by Steve Johnson »

Update -- although I don't need it myself, I'm leaning toward John Trager's recommendation for LGM Planting Mix as a good (maybe ideal?) organic component in soilless mixes. LGM Soil has distributors throughout SoCal, but for those of you who don't live there, it's possible that some of them will be able to ship the product to you. Unless the shipping is outrageously expensive, you could be set. Call LGM at 626-448-8042 and give it a shot.
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Re: Are you growing your cacti in a soilless mix?

Post by Nino_G »

I thought I might add the link to the article "The Stone Eaters" published by the Romanian magazine "Xerophilia" in 2013. This article greatly changed my approach to growing cacti and I've been using mineral mixes ever since, and with amazing results (if growing plant as similar to those in nature is your goal): https://xerophilia.ro/wp-content/upload ... Eaters.pdf
Enjoy your reading!
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Re: Are you growing your cacti in a soilless mix?

Post by zpeckler »

Nino_G wrote: Thu Nov 09, 2023 7:04 am I thought I might add the link to the article "The Stone Eaters" published by the Romanian magazine "Xerophilia" in 2013. This article greatly changed my approach to growing cacti and I've been using mineral mixes ever since...
You and me both, man! Reading this article really changed the way I approached cactus cultivation. I haven't gone to 100% mineral mixes for most of my cacti yet just because my summers can get so freaking hot and I worry about getting enough moisture retention. I will say that every year my growing medium for my N. American desert cacti gets leaner and leaner, and next spring I'm gonna take the plunge and try a few in pure mineral. 🤞🏻
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Re: Are you growing your cacti in a soilless mix?

Post by Steve Johnson »

zpeckler wrote: Thu Nov 09, 2023 8:48 pmYou and me both, man! Reading this article really changed the way I approached cactus cultivation. I haven't gone to 100% mineral mixes for most of my cacti yet just because my summers can get so freaking hot and I worry about getting enough moisture retention. I will say that every year my growing medium for my N. American desert cacti gets leaner and leaner, and next spring I'm gonna take the plunge and try a few in pure mineral. 🤞🏻
Something that does help -- gravel top dressing. I've insisted on gravel top dressing ever since I built my first collection in 1970, and aside from adding a decorative touch, it prevents the upper part of the mix from drying out too quickly. Depending on the size of the pot and the plant, a 1/4"-1/2" layer of top dressing should do the job.
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Re: Are you growing your cacti in a soilless mix?

Post by ChaoticN »

Hello everyone, I’ve recently went to a full hydro mix of pure pumice and it takes around 8-10 days to go from fully wet to bone dry depending on how warm and dry the environment is.

Should I add in another mineral that doesn’t hold as much moisture to get the medium to dry out faster or is that time frame acceptable for wet to dry.
Zone 6B, Kentucky. 860ft Elevation.
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