Desiccation ?

Trouble shoot problems you are having with your cactus.
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Tom in Tucson
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Re: Desiccation ?

Post by Tom in Tucson »

anttisepp wrote: Wed Jul 26, 2023 5:13 am Usually they are bullet-proof fast growing monsters with large roots.
They need much space, much sun, regular watering and sometimes feeding.
A little anecdote from when I was a teenager with too much "time on my hands":

My first experiment with a cactus I could tell was tough, was to withhold all water from an Oreocereus celsianus for a year. I kept it on my bedroom window ledge with full sun, and observed the fact that it grew new spines with long silky hairs, new sharp spines, and didn't shrink any noticeable amount. I guess the lesson learned was: we don't have to worry about watering some cacti.
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greenknight
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Re: Desiccation ?

Post by greenknight »

Steve Johnson wrote: Fri Jul 28, 2023 9:11 am is there something about the Espoma that's giving us P in the acceptable range? By the way -- if you question my assertion on acceptable range, that's fine, but please know that I didn't pull the range numbers out of thin air:
I just meant that N is higher than the elemental P (slightly), so it's just barely acceptable - but I agree the P is much higher than ideal relative to the N. Espoma's general purpose 2-2-2 fertilizer would be better (same ingredients in different proportion), but this stuff is not the worst I've seen, and it's fine if you add some supplemental N.

I agree with Jerry that you don't need to inoculate the soil more than once or twice a year. I also bought a bottle of this, got the Cactus formula because I have some old 5-1-1 fish fertilizer I want to use up, I blend a quarter dose of it with the Espoma Cactus, using that a couple times a year is as much fertilizer as I want to use - I use a potting mix with considerable organic matter due to the very low summer humidity here, so I don't need to fertilize constantly, and I grow my cacti hard anyway.

I've been meaning to post my take on this product, just haven't gotten around to it. I plan on going into a bit more in-depth analysis. I haven't even touched om the humic acid it contains yet, that's another complicated subject.
Spence :mrgreen:
FredBW
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Re: Desiccation ?

Post by FredBW »

Found something interesting today. The nursery I bought my cactus from has 3 stores around KC. I stopped by the one that is farthest away.
Low and behold there are 2 of my cacti's siblings still there. They both have the brown disease over 60 to 70%. The same that is on mine.
The soil in both was dry as a bone,and I know it's nursery policy for them to very rarely water their cactus inventory. My girl worked at one of the three for years.
I see no way my problem has anything to do with fertilizer. I have over 100 cacti, 2 over 70 years old,and the "old man" is the only one like this. And I bet it's simply because of lack of water. Time will tell.
But here is a picture of the poor cactus still in the nursery still at FULL price.
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jerrytheplater
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Re: Desiccation ?

Post by jerrytheplater »

Good sleuthing!!
Jerry Smith
Bloomingdale, NJ
45 inches (114 cm) rain equivalent per year, approx. evenly spread per month
2012 USDA Hardiness Zone 6b: -5F to OF (-20C to -18C) min.
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MikeInOz
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Re: Desiccation ?

Post by MikeInOz »

I don't think the trouble with this plant is fertilizer or (at the moment) water. At some point this plant was seriously neglected. For years. That lead to the greater proportion on the stem developing the corky ''skin''. This could have been caused by a lack of water, by a lack of nutrients due to exhausted or compacted soil or by mites or all of these things. The problem now - as I see it - is a lack of green on the stem which can photosynthesize. In other words, if the plant can't make sugars, it won't grow. Roots or stem. This plant should be thrown into the garbage without wasting anymore time on it. Although it could possibly slowly recover over time. Personally I would not bother with it. Life is too short.
FredBW
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Re: Desiccation ?

Post by FredBW »

MikeInOz wrote: Sun Jul 30, 2023 11:40 pm I don't think the trouble with this plant is fertilizer or (at the moment) water. At some point this plant was seriously neglected. For years. That lead to the greater proportion on the stem developing the corky ''skin''. This could have been caused by a lack of water, by a lack of nutrients due to exhausted or compacted soil or by mites or all of these things. The problem now - as I see it - is a lack of green on the stem which can photosynthesize. In other words, if the plant can't make sugars, it won't grow. Roots or stem. This plant should be thrown into the garbage without wasting anymore time on it. Although it could possibly slowly recover over time. Personally I would not bother with it. Life is too short.
Wow. Did you read the part of this thread where I said it didn't have this when I brought it home? It may be my biased eye. But I honestly believe it is greening up in places after getting drenched by the Thunderstorm. I'm not talking about where it is brown,but where it looked like it was getting ready to turn that way. Yep,there is no doubt it sat in the window at the nursery all last summer with probably no water and was neglected. And I probably should have given it more water. But the fact is I havn't rotted it yet,and it looks FAR better than it's sibling I posted a picture of yesterday.
It has also grown over an inch since I repotted it last winter. I think if you are going to tell someone to throw their cactus in the trash,you should actually take the time to read the thread. Or if you did read it,your advice isn't worth much. And I am a LONG way from following your said "advice" :D
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MikeInOz
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Re: Desiccation ?

Post by MikeInOz »

Wow. Did you read the part of this thread where I said it didn't have this when I brought it home?
No I didn't. All I read was this.....
But if this cactus had this problem last winter when I repotted it I sure didn't see it
Low and behold there are 2 of my cacti's siblings still there. They both have the brown disease over 60 to 70%. The same that is on mine.

And I am a LONG way from following your said "advice"
No problem at all. You can throw it away in your own time. Another option is to cut in in half and grow some nice clean offsets to cut off and root.
FredBW
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Re: Desiccation ?

Post by FredBW »

No problem at all. You can throw it away in your own time. Another option is to cut in in half and grow some nice clean offsets to cut off and root.
[/quote]

I believe i have a far better idea. I'll simply water it, give it all the sun it can get,and probably repot it before next spring =D>
In all honesty it appears the brown crud has stopped spreading. It might rot because it got rained on again. The brown crud just might take over next winter. But from where i sit (and I am the one that can actually see it :wink: ) The problem isn't that far advanced and I'll be go to hell if I'll listen to someone on the internet telling me to throw it away,or chop it up :roll:
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jerrytheplater
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Re: Desiccation ?

Post by jerrytheplater »

FredBW wrote: Tue Aug 01, 2023 12:42 amI'll be go to hell if I'll listen to someone on the internet telling me to throw it away, or chop it up :roll:
That would often be me. Chopping off the top will cause pups to grow on the bottom which can be rooted and give nice looking plants.
Jerry Smith
Bloomingdale, NJ
45 inches (114 cm) rain equivalent per year, approx. evenly spread per month
2012 USDA Hardiness Zone 6b: -5F to OF (-20C to -18C) min.
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anttisepp
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Re: Desiccation ?

Post by anttisepp »

I never throw alive plants away and very rarely cut them (primary roots usually better).
Growing cacti means also ability to wait very long time in peace...
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Steve Johnson
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Re: Desiccation ?

Post by Steve Johnson »

Hi Fred,

We have 3 comparison photos to review:
Old_Man_of_the_Andes_comparison_photos.jpg
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The photo on the left is from the nursery you mentioned -- badly neglected due to very infrequent watering as you said. Nutrient deficiency is obvious to the well-trained eye. I'm really glad that you saved one, and the Old Man of the Andes you rescued isn't so bad. However, the triangular top growth isn't normal. Compare it with the photo from llifle.com on the right, and top growth pointed out by the box is normal. Corking on the base -- also normal, but your plant does show premature corking. Lack of adequate watering does have something to do with it, but that's only part of the problem, the other part being excessive P in the Espoma 1-2-2 fertilizer you're using. We'll look at it again:
Cactus.png
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The oxygen in P2O5 and K2O supports the plant's health, but it has no nutrient value, so all we're concerned about is determining the amounts of elemental P and K available to the plant. Once again, the calculations are:

2% P2O5 x .436 = 0.872% elemental P
2% K2O x 0.83 = 1.66% elemental K

N = 1 is the constant for determining NPK ratios, so the Espoma's 1% N makes it easy -- 1-0.872-1.66. The balance between N and K is great, but P is way too high. A significant consequence of excessive P -- reduced stem and root growth. Even though your Old Man of the Andes has 1" of new top growth, it should be filled out more than it is, and that's due to excessive P.

My fert of choice for 11 years had been Dyna-Gro All-Pro 7-7-7, so we'll take a look at its P:
  • 7% P2O5 x .436 = 3.05% elemental P
With N = 1 as the constant, the P side of the ratio comes in at 0.44 -- not terribly excessive, but still too high. When Dyna-Gro discontinued the 7-7-7, I replaced it with General Hydroponics FloraMicro 5-0-1 and FloraBloom 0-5-4 at the beginning of the year. Okay, both ferts combined gives us 5-5-5, which means the same problem with P higher than it should be. What I'm doing there is supplementing the GH ferts with an ammonium sulfate-potassium sulfate stock solution, then adding the right amount of stock solution to my watering solution. End result -- the P side of the ratio is 0.29, well within the acceptable range of 0.2-0.4. Improvements in the stem growth of my cacti this year have been pretty amazing. Another consequence of excessive P is reduced flowering or no flowering at all. Compared to years of higher P in the 7-7-7, I'm enjoying the best flowering year ever thanks to the lower P in my new fertilizer regimen.

Fred, if you're up for making the switch, I'll be happy to give you the recipes and instructions for the GH ferts plus their supplemental stock solutions. Probably too late in the growing season to do you much good now, but you'll have plenty of time to prepare for next spring. The only problem I can foresee with your Old Man of the Andes is new top growth filling out next year, which will leave you with a sort of "pinched in" spot on the stem caused by the Espoma's excessive P. Maybe not a problem if you don't mind that, but you do have another option to consider:
  • Cut the stem well below what I'm calling the "pinch point". Give the exposed tissue a liberal dusting of sulfur powder and let it form a callus. If the root system is healthy, your Old Man of the Andes will grow a new head on the cut. You can either let the new head continue growing as-is, or cut it and root it when it gets bigger.
I realize that option seems kinda drastic, but the good news is that you won't have to make decisions either way anytime soon.
If you just want photos without all the blather, please visit my Flickr gallery.
My location: Los Angeles, CA (Zone 10b)
FredBW
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Re: Desiccation ?

Post by FredBW »

jerrytheplater wrote: Tue Aug 01, 2023 1:38 pm
FredBW wrote: Tue Aug 01, 2023 12:42 amI'll be go to hell if I'll listen to someone on the internet telling me to throw it away, or chop it up :roll:
That would often be me. Chopping off the top will cause pups to grow on the bottom which can be rooted and give nice looking plants.
Ahhh but you didn't. :) There certainly are circumstances where pups would be fitting. And I believe you give a lot of consideration before recommending that. But here is the "good side" of the cactus in question as of today.
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I kind of already have a fleet of pups,and I'm trying to downsize but not on purpose.
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I think the big one and 2 of the smaller ones are Oreocereus Celsianus. The smallest was a strawflower which I think is a Troliii. If I can't keep these healthy I better move on to different varieties. The humidity here right now is like a sauna and it will take it's toll.
But the point is they are almost like pets,and i don't believe the big one is ready to be "put to sleep" .
Last edited by FredBW on Wed Aug 02, 2023 12:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
FredBW
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Re: Desiccation ?

Post by FredBW »

Thanks for taking the time to post Steve. As I think I said somewhere in this thread,I have over 100 cacti. My Cardon I posted a picture of not long ago in another thread that was showing signs of rot around the areoles until I put it in the sun ALSO has the triangular growth you are talking about.
I just measured the triangle part on the old man. It is almost 6 inches. Weird when it only grew just over an inch since i had it. But as i say it and the cardon both have it.
I have a few more cacti that are obvious i over fertilized. But most look normal. The Old Man is the ONLY one with the brown disease.
I followed the fertilizer threads very closely up until a couple months ago. And I quit following because I know myself pretty well,and figured i would overdo it and wind up with problems such as this.
I think I am better suited to simply repotting every couple years with a few worm castings and fertilizing only a couple times a year. I kept just a few cacti for years doing just that with pretty good luck not even fertilizing them. My experience has been cacti thrive off of neglect.
But I will certainly keep reading about fertilizer,and maybe only practice it on a few guanine pigs. Time will tell
Here is a pic of the cardon
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MikeInOz
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Re: Desiccation ?

Post by MikeInOz »

anttisepp wrote: Tue Aug 01, 2023 3:38 pm I never throw alive plants away and very rarely cut them (primary roots usually better).
Growing cacti means also ability to wait very long time in peace...
I throw away lots of plants every year. Any which are disfigured and I don't like the look of. Any runts and scrawny seedlings, any mother plant that has declined and I can re-start from a pup, any plant that has damage that I will have to look at for years on end, any plant that I have too many of and cannot get rid of, any plant that has severe corkiness developing at the base and is not worth re-starting due to it commonality.
After all that I still don't have enough room.
keith
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Re: Desiccation ?

Post by keith »

I would re-pot something could be wrong with the soil . One clue the others at the store are also dying.
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