Nice to meet you all from Indonesia (and an overview on my plant journey)

[Steve Johnson]

Thanks for the extra info. I did some search and found the 'derived from' part from the General Hydroponics ferts you use and use that as a reference for researching local ferts' ingredients. And...

...I found nothing. The 'derived from' section seems to be absent from all of the ferts manufactured by Meroke. However, the components of the ferts are listed as 'ingredients', which I know isn't the same as 'derived from'. I think the lack of 'derived from' statement is due to it's not required by Indonesian law or it's not strictly required and therefore manufacturers prefer not to inform them. Though, is this a concern? (the fact the US legally require the local manufacturers to state these mean this may be something important, a big deal).

I barely survived high school chemistry class many years ago, so the whole "derived from" thing is beyond my understanding. Even if I did know what the "derived from" components mean from a chemistry standpoint, my only concern would be knowing the nutrient values on the fertilizer's label. That we already have. However, I do take Jerry's point about this:

Phosphorous Pentoxide, to my knowledge, is not used in fertilizers. Why is it listed in the chemical analysis? Because the procedure/s used to analyze fertilizers for phosphorous content all report the result as if phosphorus pentoxide were there.

Without knowing the "derived from" sources of P in the FLEX-G and PROVIT Hijau, there's only one way to find out if any of those sources neutralize carbonates -- a test strip reading KH. We don't want to get ahead of ourselves here, so let's you and I take the time to do some testing, then come to a conclusion based on the results.

[jerrytheplater]

Derived From is simple. It is an ingredient list. It looks like Adi saw an ingredients list on his fertilizers.

Kind of like Eggs are derived from chickens, not the supermarket. Potassium is derived from Potassium Nitrate, Potassium Monophosphate, Potassium Chloride, Potassium Sulfate......

[Steve Johnson]

Derived From is simple. It is an ingredient list. It looks like Adi saw an ingredients list on his fertilizers.

Adi -- if that's the case, please show me the list for the Meroke FLEX-G and PROVIT Hijau. Jerry -- if I know what the phosphate sources are, I may be able to figure out the ones that would lower his watering solution's pH. Even though I don't understand the chemistry yet, I'm willing to learn. Or at least try.

[Wiandry Adi]

OK, about ingredients of my fertilizers...

It seems I got confused; when I post about ingredients previously, I assume it was the components of the ferts, as in the phosphate, potassium oxide, nitrate + ammonium, etc. since I pinpointed on chemical compound names printed on the packaging. My bad.

That's what I'm currently asking to some folks online or I'll try to ask some sellers if they know on what Hijau and FLEX-G are made of, because even in the Meroke's official website, it's not listed. There's an exception so far, that in GROWER, they listed/stated the source of potassium as potassium chloride (KCl), and that's all about it. I just realized this as most of other local fert distributors don't state what their ferts derived from, only the components' percentage stated.

Since Meroke distributed lots of ferts, I can't pinpoint which acidifying chemical compounds that comprise the ingredients of both Hijau and FLEX-G. What a bummer. But I assume that may be because they keep it classified as in restaurants keep their secret formula. But again, why do the US require any fert distributor to state their ferts' derivatives? I may use that info as a reference when I ask the folks who knows better.

[Steve Johnson]

I may use that info as a reference when I ask the folks who knows better.

Unfortunately, they won't tell you why US regulations are strict, but I will -- from Wikipedia:

• "The Pure Food and Drug Act of 1906, also known as Dr. Wiley's Law, was the first of a series of significant consumer protection laws which was enacted by Congress in the 20th century and led to the creation of the Food and Drug Administration. Its main purpose was to ban foreign and interstate traffic in adulterated or mislabeled food and drug products, and it directed the U.S. Bureau of Chemistry to inspect products and refer offenders to prosecutors. It required that active ingredients be placed on the label of a drug's packaging and that drugs could not fall below purity levels established by the United States Pharmacopeia or the National Formulary."

Going from FDA regulations to requirements for providing a guaranteed analysis which includes "derived from" statements with fertilizers isn't much of a stretch. The only difference here is that guaranteed analysis regulations are set by the various states, not the Federal government.

I'm a firm believer in full disclosure, and if Indonesian manufacturers won't disclose what's in their fertilizers, then IMO bad on them. On the other hand, if their ferts perform well over the years, the matter might be nothing more than a "tempest in a teapot".

By the way -- I got my aquarium test strips yesterday, so I'll start the tap water+fertilizers test over the weekend. Rather than wait for the results of pH, KH, and GH changes in the test jar after 7 days, I'll test changes in all 3 parameters on a daily basis. The goal -- making sure that all Ca and Mg in tap water is available to the plant through acidification from acidity in the ferts and 5% white vinegar. Whether that goal can be reached has yet to be determined.

[MikeInOz]

the source of potassium as potassium chloride (KCl),

Potassium chloride is the cheapest, nastiest form of potassium and should not be used for container grown plants if at all possible.

[Steve Johnson]

the source of potassium as potassium chloride (KCl),

Potassium chloride is the cheapest, nastiest form of potassium and should not be used for container grown plants if at all possible.

That's the only ingredient listed in Multiara GROWER, but thankfully Adi isn't using it anymore. However, the issue may not be a "tempest in a teapot" after all, and if potassium chloride is in general use with Indonesian manufacturers, one can only wonder about the other ingredients in their ferts.

Adi, I wish you had a much wider selection of fertilizers to choose from, and it would be nice if the manufacturers were more forthcoming with a disclosure of what's in their ferts. Sadly, you're not getting either, so I'm afraid you'll just have to take your chances with the only 2 ferts that show promise -- FLEX-G and Hijau.

[Wiandry Adi]

Going from FDA regulations to requirements for providing a guaranteed analysis which includes "derived from" statements with fertilizers isn't much of a stretch. The only difference here is that guaranteed analysis regulations are set by the various states, not the Federal government.

I'm a firm believer in full disclosure, and if Indonesian manufacturers won't disclose what's in their fertilizers, then IMO bad on them. On the other hand, if their ferts perform well over the years, the matter might be nothing more than a "tempest in a teapot".

Ha, I gotta look up what a 'tempest in a teapot' before I posted this, and I gotta say it may be one considering nobody complained about what the ferts are made from here. Knowing most of my collection do well (so far...), I think this shall be an issue for the upcoming future. Gotta dig those sweet derivatives!

I do wonder why my local ferts distributor won't disclose their ferts' derivatives. I mean, when it comes to foods and drinks, the ingredients must be stated and it helped people see if there are any ingredients that may be deemed non-consumable (like some food additives that turned out to be dangerous even if consumed in small quantities) and act accordingly. Fertilizers have compounds that can be surprisingly dangerous if used carelessly, but why not just spill the beans? This is something my country needs to work on.

Though, no worries; some local ferts here are also distributed as its purest form, like the potassium sulfate/ammonium sulfate one, and I just found out that the pure potassium nitrate one exists as well. I kinda wish pure calcium nitrate ferts exist as well.

Also, speaking of chloride...

the source of potassium as potassium chloride (KCl),

Potassium chloride is the cheapest, nastiest form of potassium and should not be used for container grown plants if at all possible.

I have conflicted perspective(s) regarding chloride; some sources stated it is bad while some other sources stated it's good, even necessary. From what I saw, the 'bad' sources stated chloride inhibits the plants' process of gaining macronutrients, esp. nitrogen and disturbing the soil's ecology; the 'good' sources stated plants need chloride as a form of trace element that could aid water movement in their body. Despite the seemingly contradicting knowledge, I do find a similarity: excess. I see that there shall be no more than 20 ppm of chloride in soil, but again, I'm still digging it.

I do get it that sodium and chloride - and its compound, the table salt - shall be in the soil in a microscopically minute amount if not at all, but looking at the sources made me confused, and I just hope that my ferts contain as microscopically small chloride as possible, since I prefer not to get them too much. But yeah, the GROWER one could wait for the councils to decide its fate.

[jerrytheplater]

the source of potassium as potassium chloride (KCl),

Potassium chloride is the cheapest, nastiest form of potassium and should not be used for container grown plants if at all possible.

Too much chloride!! If I ever use it, it is for its chloride. And that would have been back in aquariums.

[Steve Johnson]

I do wonder why my local ferts distributor won't disclose their ferts' derivatives. I mean, when it comes to foods and drinks, the ingredients must be stated and it helped people see if there are any ingredients that may be deemed non-consumable (like some food additives that turned out to be dangerous even if consumed in small quantities) and act accordingly. Fertilizers have compounds that can be surprisingly dangerous if used carelessly, but why not just spill the beans? This is something my country needs to work on.

Agreed. One thing that may work in your favor...

Taking note of what Mike said regarding chloride, I sorta kinda have a feeling that it isn't used in hydroponic fertilizers. The Meroke FLEX-G is a hydroponic fert, although I don't see it listed as such for the PROVIT Hijau. The only way to know -- contact Meroke, and ask them about what's in their ferts. If you contact them by email, it's a wonderful way for them to dodge the question, and that's when picking up the phone and actually talking to a live person at least gives you a decent shot at getting answers. Here is the Meroke Tetap Jaya website:

https://meroketetapjaya.com

I believe Meroke is the manufacturer of the Meroke, Multiara, and Provit lines of fertilizers. Look for a phone number at the bottom of the site. If the person you speak with is only a sales rep, respectfully but firmly request that you speak with someone at Meroke who knows the ingredients going into the ferts you're using -- and paying good money for.

[Wiandry Adi]

Taking note of what Mike said regarding chloride, I sorta kinda have a feeling that it isn't used in hydroponic fertilizers. The Meroke FLEX-G is a hydroponic fert, although I don't see it listed as such for the PROVIT Hijau. The only way to know -- contact Meroke, and ask them about what's in their ferts. If you contact them by email, it's a wonderful way for them to dodge the question, and that's when picking up the phone and actually talking to a live person at least gives you a decent shot at getting answers. Here is the Meroke Tetap Jaya website:

https://meroketetapjaya.com

I believe Meroke is the manufacturer of the Meroke, Multiara, and Provit lines of fertilizers. Look for a phone number at the bottom of the site. If the person you speak with is only a sales rep, respectfully but firmly request that you speak with someone at Meroke who knows the ingredients going into the ferts you're using -- and paying good money for.

After looking back to their official website and other sources, mainly social media, Meroke Tetap Jaya isn't manufacturing their ferts as it turns out; they distribute them, and most of the manufacturers are of foreign countries. I see other local fert distributors here also get most of their fert lines from foreign manufacturers as well. My apologies if I didn't or forgot to mention this earlier in the thread.

This may be challenging, but I do hope at least I can get any clarity after I try to get in touch with them, though asking the ferts' ingredients may weird them out since no one I know did this before. I'll see if I can contact them.

[Steve Johnson]

Taking note of what Mike said regarding chloride, I sorta kinda have a feeling that it isn't used in hydroponic fertilizers. The Meroke FLEX-G is a hydroponic fert, although I don't see it listed as such for the PROVIT Hijau. The only way to know -- contact Meroke, and ask them about what's in their ferts. If you contact them by email, it's a wonderful way for them to dodge the question, and that's when picking up the phone and actually talking to a live person at least gives you a decent shot at getting answers. Here is the Meroke Tetap Jaya website:

https://meroketetapjaya.com

I believe Meroke is the manufacturer of the Meroke, Multiara, and Provit lines of fertilizers. Look for a phone number at the bottom of the site. If the person you speak with is only a sales rep, respectfully but firmly request that you speak with someone at Meroke who knows the ingredients going into the ferts you're using -- and paying good money for.

After looking back to their official website and other sources, mainly social media, Meroke Tetap Jaya isn't manufacturing their ferts as it turns out; they distribute them, and most of the manufacturers are of foreign countries. I see other local fert distributors here also get most of their fert lines from foreign manufacturers as well. My apologies if I didn't or forgot to mention this earlier in the thread.

This may be challenging, but I do hope at least I can get any clarity after I try to get in touch with them, though asking the ferts' ingredients may weird them out since no one I know did this before. I'll see if I can contact them.

Okay, since Meroke is a distributor, it's possible that they won't know the ingredients -- not sure if this is even their responsibility to know. But it certainly doesn't hurt to ask. If Meroke can at least point you to the manufacturers of the FLEX-G and PROVIT Hijau, those manufacturers should be able to give you their lists of ingredients. This will take doing some research on your part.

I do wonder why my local ferts distributor won't disclose their ferts' derivatives. I mean, when it comes to foods and drinks, the ingredients must be stated and it helped people see if there are any ingredients that may be deemed non-consumable (like some food additives that turned out to be dangerous even if consumed in small quantities) and act accordingly. Fertilizers have compounds that can be surprisingly dangerous if used carelessly...

Excellent point -- that's why you have the right to know what's in your ferts.

[Wiandry Adi]

OK, so I've undertaken a deep search (not sure if I can dub it a 'research') and I found some things regarding the disclosure of ferts in Indonesia:

I've looked on the ferts' derivatives of General Hydroponics' Flora Series and I can pinpoint some of the basic ingredients of said ferts are available in Indonesia. For example:

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Some of the ingredients listed here are available and affordable in Indonesia, with few exceptions: ammonium molybdate, which 1 kg of it is sold as much as USD $500 (IDR Rp8.000.000), which is ridiculously expensive, I'm not sure why. A cheaper alternative exists, that is sodium molybdate, which due of it having sodium in its name, I decided to move on.

I was thinking I could replicate these ferts' ingredients, but knowing my current expertise in chemistry, not in the long run, I guess.

Based on that, and also the list of the prices of Flora Series ferts in some online shops (I mostly compare from Ubuy and Amazon), I see ferts that contain no chloride (and sodium, hopefully) are relatively expensive. This applies too to Meroke's PROVIT series, in which I was tempted to just buy Mutiara series which can be twice cheaper than PROVIT (for example, per 1 kg, GROWER costs IDR Rp25.000 in average while PROVIT Hijau costs IDR Rp50.000 in average - USD $1.5 compared to USD $3). Then, based on how that GROWER includes potassium chloride as its major source of potassium, I looked on raw potassium sources available here.

For another comparison, two ferts that are stated as 'potassium nitrate': Meroke CPN and Meroke KALINITRA. Both have the same content but with different ingredients based on their content specification: CPN have about 15% N, 15% K2O, and... 17% Na and 1% Cl. Table salts! With KALINITRA stated 13% N and 46% K2O - the same as potassium nitrate's Wikipedia entry, KALINITRA is much more tempting. But the price? CPN is three times cheaper than KALINITRA. I assume CPN isn't even a pure potassium nitrate to begin with.

I found that potassium chloride is indeed more common and cheaper compared to another (again, hopefully) trustworthy potassium source, the potassium nitrate. I believe PROVIT series, as far as I/we know it, is still safe based on the prices they apply to each Mutiara and PROVIT ferts.

Whoops, I'm not done yet.

Remember that earlier in this thread, I also suggest using GrowMore ferts? Turns out there's a twist.

I've covered both the American and Indonesian version of GrowMore ferts and found that somehow, Indonesian version still goes with the 'no disclosure of ferts' derivatives' trend while the American version stated it nonetheless. For example:

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Both are the same fert, 20-20-20. In the Indonesian version, no 'Derived From' section, while the second one has it. Again, according to Steve:

I may use that info as a reference when I ask the folks who knows better.

Unfortunately, they won't tell you why US regulations are strict, but I will -- from Wikipedia:

• "The Pure Food and Drug Act of 1906, also known as Dr. Wiley's Law, was the first of a series of significant consumer protection laws which was enacted by Congress in the 20th century and led to the creation of the Food and Drug Administration. Its main purpose was to ban foreign and interstate traffic in adulterated or mislabeled food and drug products, and it directed the U.S. Bureau of Chemistry to inspect products and refer offenders to prosecutors. It required that active ingredients be placed on the label of a drug's packaging and that drugs could not fall below purity levels established by the United States Pharmacopeia or the National Formulary."

Going from FDA regulations to requirements for providing a guaranteed analysis which includes "derived from" statements with fertilizers isn't much of a stretch. The only difference here is that guaranteed analysis regulations are set by the various states, not the Federal government.

I think GrowMore adjusts to Indonesian trend (which may be a custom, I'm concerned) so they don't have to disclosure their ingredients here, while in the US, they're obliged to. Thankfully, I can access their website and some other sources that also list GrowMore's ferts' derivatives and I found no sodium nor chloride is mentioned. But of course, GrowMore ferts are relatively expensive here, ranging in IDR Rp75.000 for 454 gr (1 lbs; I'd say it's 500 gr).

With this posted, GrowMore is the only fertilizer lines in Indonesia that has disclosed their ferts' derivatives, at least if one understands English fluently and be able to access their website

Maybe the key is if it's cheap, then it probably contains table salts, or just chloride. Gotta be careful with financially tempting stuffs...

So yeah, I'll still find a way to contact Meroke in this regard, just to be safe.

Oh, by the way, Steve, I see both General Hydroponics and GrowMore are both based in California, so if I'm not mistaken, maybe you have more experience on GrowMore products since for you, GrowMore is a local product (since Los Angeles is in California...)

[Steve Johnson]

This is getting interestinger and interestinger (yeah, I know -- no such word! )...

I've never used the GrowMore fertilizer, but I do know that it's being used by a cactus nursery called Planet Desert in Southern California. I think our own Craig Fry of C and D Plants uses it too. 20-20-20 means that you would have to re-balance it with the right amounts of ammonium sulfate and potassium sulfate, but I can certainly help you out there. If the GrowMore version in Indonesia is exactly the same as what we get here, I'll take a closer look at the guaranteed analysis and see if this is the right stuff for you. I realize the fert will be more expensive for you, but cheap (and possibly harmful) fertilizers won't do your plants any favors in the long run. I'll do some research and get back to you.

[Wiandry Adi]

This is getting interestinger and interestinger (yeah, I know -- no such word! )...

I've never used the GrowMore fertilizer, but I do know that it's being used by a cactus nursery called Planet Desert in Southern California. I think our own Craig Fry of C and D Plants uses it too. 20-20-20 means that you would have to re-balance it with the right amounts of ammonium sulfate and potassium sulfate, but I can certainly help you out there. If the GrowMore version in Indonesia is exactly the same as what we get here, I'll take a closer look at the guaranteed analysis and see if this is the right stuff for you. I realize the fert will be more expensive for you, but cheap (and possibly harmful) fertilizers won't do your plants any favors in the long run. I'll do some research and get back to you.

Well, while I do provide the 20-20-20 GrowMore as an example for the sake of this thread, I also consider using it as a secondary feed apart from Meroke Hijau and FLEX-G (by the way, if the local/American GrowMore also in turquoise/bright blue crystal powder form, I can conclude it is indeed the same); I was thinking about 32-10-10 and 20-20-20, and if so, I'll switch bi-weekly; e.g. week one Hijau-FLEX-G, week two GrowMore, and so on.

I just love it being easily dissolves in water (I use the small package ones years ago and how do I love watching them turning the water blue as I gently stir 'em!). Also, if you're really familiar with GrowMore ferts, PROVIT Hijau has exactly the same texture, only it's bright green instead of turquoise/bright blue (also also, it'll be amazing if you can provide me with a sample of your local GrowMore ferts' physical form, and see if it's just like what I'm getting here in Indonesia. Not much, just a pint of them from the small packaging. I'll share mine as well)